The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

Statement by the Llywydd

Good afternoon, everyone. Before we start formally today, may I say that it was with great sadness that we heard yesterday the news of John Morris's death. Even though his title was Lord Morris of Aberavon, and having represented with great honour that area as Member of Parliament for 40 years, he was a farmer's son from Aberystwyth. But his family weren't just farmers; they were a rich tapestry of miners from the coalfields of Rhondda and milk merchants in London. Indeed, the welfare of the farmers of Wales was an important feature of his career, from the period he spent in the 1950s as deputy secretary general of the Farmers Union of Wales—having played a part in that union's inception from the very beginning—until the moment, in 1976, when the Farmers Union of Wales was formally recognised in Government negotiations by John Morris, who was by then Secretary of State for Wales, and also the transfer of powers over agriculture in full to the Secretary of State for Wales from the agriculture secretary, in a ceremony in Trawsgoed, Ceredigion, in March of 1978. The Minister with responsibility for agriculture in Wales to this day acts according to the decisions and powers used by John Morris in the 1970s.
In his memoir, John Morris says that the two most prominent matters for him in his 60 years and more of public service were equality of opportunity for the individual and the creation of national institutions in Wales. And working towards a national democracy was the greatest privilege of his career. He tabled the devolution referendum Bill in 1979, and again he was in the Government in the 1990s that crafted the referendum for devolution and the establishment of the Senedd. He was a prominent part of the opening ceremony of the Assembly in 1999.
Our thanks to John Morris is therefore great, for a lifetime of service to his people, to his language, and to the nation. And it's on his shoulders that this Cardi and all of us elected to the Senedd sit today. We send our deepest condolences to Margaret, his wife, and to his family and friends.
And now, on behalf of the Government and the Labour Party, the First Minister to say a few words of tribute to John Morris.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, diolch yn fawr. To say that the very sad news of the death of Lord John Morris is an end of an era is to say something that is authentically true rather than the cliché that is sometimes used. He was the last surviving person to have been elected as a Member of Parliament in the 1950s, the last person alive to have attended Harold Wilson's resignation dinner at Downing Street. And to see that he has died after a very short illness reminds me that, only in the last few days, he wrote to me from his hospital bed, anxious as ever that a matter of a concern to Wales should be properly scrutinised at the House of Lords.

Mark Drakeford AC: We were so fortunate, Llywydd, that we had enjoyed his company here in the Senedd just last year as we marked the life of the former Secretary of State for Wales, James Griffiths. It was like sitting in the room 60 years ago as the Labour Party prepared for Government and for the delivery of a pledge that John Morris had campaigned for to have a direct voice for Wales in the UK Cabinet.

Mark Drakeford AC: And in all the years that have followed, and across such a distinguished career in law and in politics, his support for Wales and for devolution was unstinting. My party has lost a direct link far back into the first half of the Labour century in Wales. Our nation has lost one of its most faithful and effective voices. How proud he always was that a Parliament now exists in Wales, and how fitting that we are able to pay our tributes to him and to pay our respects to his family on the floor of this Senedd today.

Thank you very much to the First Minister.

Statement by the Llywydd

Before we move on to the first item, I also want to inform the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 26.75, that the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill 2023 was given Royal Assent on 24 May 2023.

1. Questions to the First Minister

So, questions to the First Minister now, and the first question today is from Mike Hedges.

Leasehold

Mike Hedges AC: 1. Will the First Minister make a statement on the use of leasehold and its effect on homeowners? OQ59592

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Mike Hedges for that question. The adverse effects of leasehold on home owners are well set out in the 2020 report of the Law Commission. They include excessive estate charging regimes, opaque legal costs, commission-taking in the provision of buildings insurance, and the absence of an alternative to leaseholding in multi-occupancy buildings.

Mike Hedges AC: Oh, I didn't know you'd come to an end there, First Minister. [Laughter.] Thank you for your response. Leasehold is a feudal system that causes concern to people who live in leasehold properties. Many of my constituents were incredibly upset, on the death of the Duke of Beaufort, when they got letters telling them that any minerals under their house or land were still the property of the successor to the Duke of Beaufort. I hope the Welsh Government will plan to tackle the growing problem of newly built housing sold as leasehold rather than freehold, and to limit ground rents and their increase on new lease agreements. Does the First Minister support replacing leasehold with a commonhold system, based on co-operative principles; implementing the Law Commission's recommendations to reform leasehold by increasing the rights of leaseholders to collectively buy and manage their properties, including blocks of flats; and legislation to make a co-operative legal structure the preferred company structure for the management of current leasehold properties?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Mike Hedges for those further questions. I agree with him that the leasehold regimes in England and Wales are badly in need of further reform. We have taken action already in Wales, Llywydd, to reduce the number of new-build houses that are sold on a leasehold basis. In fact, Land Registry use figures suggest that, in the last year for which figures are available, the number of new-build houses sold on a leasehold basis in Wales was in single figures. So, significant progress has been made there. And the 2022 Leasehold Reform (Ground Rent) Act does allow us to take new action in Wales in relation to excessive ground rent charges. However, there is a great deal more that needs to be done, and it was disappointing to read recent reports that Michael Gove's promise in January this year to abolish leasehold now looks as though it's not to be taken forward, following a clash with Downing Street. The things that we were looking for in that piece of legislation include the points that Mike Hedges has made, Llywydd, about commonhold. Commonhold needs to be reformed so that it becomes a genuine viable model for multi-occupancy buildings, and the Law Commission's work identified the reforms that were required to make commonhold that workable alternative. Here in Wales, we very much support that. We hope it will still be taken forward by the UK Government, because, in this area, the combination of the housing responsibilities that we hold here, but the private law, including the law of property responsibilities that remain non-devolved, means that the most effective way of putting right the wrongs that still exist in the leasehold area is to legislate on that Wales-and-England basis.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I would like to thank our colleague Mike Hedges for raising this very important issue here today. Thanks, Mike. Leasehold accounts for around 16 per cent of all properties in Wales, and that equates to 235,000 properties. Now, in my own constituency of Aberconwy, we witnessed at first hand the shocking failure of leaseholds. A number of my constituents bought houses on a brand-new estate, and it was only three years later that they realised that they hadn't bought the freehold, when they were actually asked to buy the freehold—I think it was around £3,000. The developers had recommended solicitors—their own solicitors—as part of the package. And it's fair to say that people were in shock. They were trapped, with spiraling costs out of their control. Now, we also know, in the cladding scandal, that leaseholders have been very badly affected too. Now, reforms will require significant primary legislation, and, I believe, there's a strong case for a joint England and Wales legislative approach to reforms where I suspect we may share the same aspirations. This month—

You are going to need to come to a question, now, Janet.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: —Michael Gove should be announcing a range of measures to protect the 10 million Britons who own their homes in leasehold. So, do you agree—

You got there just in time. Do you agree—?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Do you agree that better working with the UK Government would be an advantage, and that one day we can see not just some leaseholds banned, but all of them, and that common law is used more—commonhold? Thank you, First Minister.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, can I thank the Member for that question? I agree completely with her on the need for greater transparency in the way that leasehold arrangements are brought about, and, indeed, as I said in my answer to Mike Hedges, I believe that a joint Wales and England approach to legislation in this area is the most effective way to put right some of the wrongs that Janet Finch-Saunders has identified. The MP responsible, the Minister of State for housing and planning, Rachel Maclean, has said that the UK Government remains committed to bringing forward legislation in this area, and the Minister here, Julie James, wrote to her UK counterparts on 25 May urging them, indeed, to do just that. We worked together closely on the Leasehold Reform (Ground Rent) Act 2022 that was taken through the UK Parliament. It secured the consent of the Senedd. And I urge the UK Government to do exactly as the Member for Aberconwy has suggested and to come forward with legislative proposals that we would be able to support.

UK Government Energy Bill

Jack Sargeant AC: 2. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of how the UK Government's Energy Bill will support Welsh residents? OQ59596

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, given the recent well-highlighted actions by agents acting on behalf of energy suppliers, substantive provision for consumer protection is a notable omission from this large and complex Bill. As such, its direct impact in supporting Welsh residents will be limited and disappointing.

Jack Sargeant AC: Brif Weinidog, you will be aware of the frequency I have raised the issue of prepayment meters and the scandal of hundreds of thousands of people having them forcibly installed last year. Thousands of vulnerable people were left at constant risk of being cut off. Some of them needed electricity for medical equipment and others had conditions where to be cold put their very lives at risk. While the UK Government and Ofgem were slow to react, it also became clear that the powers to ban the forced installation of prepayment meters, either temporarily or permanently, did not exist. This week, the Energy Bill will be going through Committee Stage in the House of Commons. First Minister, would you urge the UK Government to accept recommendations and amendments to give the Secretary of State and Ofgem the power to ban the forced installation of prepayment meters, so that these decisions are not left in the hands of energy suppliers who have already been caught red-handed and have already let vulnerable customers down?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, can I thank Jack Sargeant for those questions and also for the persistence with which he has raised these issues here on the floor of the Senedd and more widely? Of course, he is absolutely right that the spotlight that has been shone on prepayment meter customers demonstrates that the protections available to them either have not been strong enough in the first place, or, even where protections ought to have existed, they have not been honoured in the action sometimes of public authorities, and certainly in the actions of the private supplying companies. The Energy Bill ought, Llywydd, to be an opportunity for the UK Government to put in place those new statutory protections. As I said, it is a large and complex Bill, and consumer protection would not be its primary focus. But, given that there is a Bill, that has been in the making now for nearly 12 months, it is disappointing that the UK Government does not appear to be taking advantage of that Bill as a vehicle to put right some of the things that have so clearly gone wrong in this field. I do hope that, in the passage of the Bill through the House of Commons, there will be further efforts made to persuade the UK Government to take action that would ensure that some of the most vulnerable customers would no longer find themselves with prepayment meters forcibly installed in their properties without their permission, and sometimes without them even knowing that that was happening, and that the other protections that ought to be in place are put on a statutory rather than a voluntary code basis.

Mark Isherwood AC: We would support that, but proposals in the UK energy security Bill, now known as the Energy Bill, include extension of the energy price cap beyond 2023 and of the role of the electricity and market regulator, Ofgem, to cover heat networks. After decades of reliance in importing expensive foreign fossil fuels, this Bill seeks to shift our energy system towards cleaner, more affordable energy sources to power more of Wales and Britain from Wales and Britain.
In consequence, new green technologies are set to be developed and deployed here in Wales, including carbon capture usage and storage and hydrogen at Hanson's Padeswood cement works in Flintshire, floating offshore wind projects in the Celtic sea, and new nuclear energy in north-west Wales. How is the Welsh Government therefore working with the UK Government to embrace these opportunities to support Welsh residents, provide clean, secure electricity to their homes, support our businesses, and deliver energy security during the transition we all support to the sustainable zero-carbon technologies of tomorrow?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, in many ways, the problems with the Bill are not problems—they're problems of omission rather than commission. In many ways, the content of the Bill, the things it does on carbon dioxide transport and storage, the measures it takes in relation to hydrogen, and, indeed, as Mark Isherwood said, in extending the regulatory framework to cover heat networks and communal heat, those are things that the Welsh Government would be happy to support. Now, the Minister is in the final stages of preparing a legislative consent motion that will come before the Senedd in relation to the Bill. There are still a series of issues that need to be resolved, particularly in the way the Bill treats powers that are already devolved to this Senedd, which will need to be put right before we are likely to be able to positively recommend that the Bill secures legislative consent. I hope that those things can be put right, because there is much in this Bill with which we would be happy to work and to welcome. However, as Jack Sargeant has pointed out, there are things that could have been in the Bill that have not been included, and that's where I think this Bill needs to be put right.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Questions now from party leaders. Leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer, and with your permission, could I identify myself, my group and my party with the comments of yours and the First Minister in the sad news about Lord Morris's death announced last night? My first memory of John Morris was when he was Secretary of State for Wales travelling through the Royal Welsh showground, and I think I was about a seven or eight-year-old kid at the time—yes, I was young once—and he was in the ministerial car as—. The Secretary of State, for some reason in those days, used to drive through the showground, they did then, and I can always picture thinking to myself, 'What on earth is that person in the car doing that's so important?' And it even, if my memory serves me right, had a flag on the front as well then. But to hear the comments of the First Minister of that link to the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s of public service—60 years of public service—it is an example to us all.
Your comments about the Farmers Union of Wales—being a farmer myself, Presiding Officer—really do emphasise that there might be rivalry between the Labour Party and the Conservatives here, but it bears no rivalry to the rivalry of the farming unions. [Laughter.] And if, as a politician, you ever want to get away from an intense scrutiny session, just put it to them, 'What is it you want?', and you will have 101 opinions coming out of that meeting. And John Morris was a master at being able to square that off and ultimately deliver for people, whether it was in his elected role or his professional role as a barrister, and we are the poorer for losing him today, and our condolences are with his family as well.
First Minister, today, sadly here in Wales, we have the Royal College of Nursing on strike, the only part of the United Kingdom where nurses are out on strike. I appreciate that the co-operative council of all the unions have agreed the terms and conditions that the Welsh Government have put in place, but it is a fact that the Royal College of Nursing are on strike. They propose to re-ballot unless there is progress in the negotiations to try and solve the dispute that they're in with the Welsh Government. Can you confirm today that it is the intention of the Welsh Government to meet with the Royal College of Nursing to try to address some of the real concerns that they do have on working conditions and the improvement of the work-life balance, so that retention of staff can be put at the heart of any agreement that could bring this industrial action to an end?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I thank the leader of the opposition both for what he said about Lord Morris but also for his substantive question. It is disappointing that the RCN continues to pursue strike action in Wales when every other union representing the nursing workforce has agreed to accept the terms that were in such detail negotiated with them over a series of weeks. As the leader of the opposition has said, that package was accepted by the negotiating body that we have here in Wales. Of course, the Welsh Government is always going to be open to further discussions and further ideas that we can exchange with the RCN; not simply on pay, but I think the leader of the opposition made an important point that their concerns are also about conditions of employment and professional practice. There’s a range of things there that, of course, we are happy to continue to engage with the RCN on those matters, and I hope very much that we will be able to get them into a position where they will not feel that they need to ballot their members again to seek further permission for what is becoming an isolated set of industrial actions.

Andrew RT Davies AC: It is critical that that dispute is resolved, and I've heard you say time and time again, First Minister, that, through negotiation, that resolution will come. So, I would urge and commend in the same breath that you get around the table to resolve this, because obviously, without that resolution with the Royal College of Nursing, it is going to be a protracted dispute, and ultimately to the detriment of patients and staff as well, if it is allowed to continue.
When we look at winter pressures and we look at what we can do to put measures in place to alleviate those pressures within our health service, one of the key pressures is around bed and bed occupancy. We know that, within the Welsh NHS, 96 per cent of beds are occupied when the safe level of bed occupancy is 85 per cent. Have the Welsh Government got any intention of bringing forward additional actual—not virtual, actual—bed levels within the Welsh NHS so that, as the Royal College of Emergency Medicine points out, that would help to allow patients to progress through the accident and emergency departments and into the hospital setting? Because without those beds—. And I appreciate that it's a complex picture with discharge and the care in the community that's available, but unless we get those extra beds reinstated—and we've lost 1,100 beds in the last 10 years—we will not be able to allow that flow through the hospital. So can you commit today, First Minister, that, in the coming winter months, there will be an uplift in the number of beds available within the Welsh NHS?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the leader of the opposition for that question. It is complex, as he said. It’s difficult to give just a short answer to those important points. He will know the efforts that were made here in Wales over this last winter to create additional bed and bed-equivalent services to help the service through the winter. My own view is that a simple focus on beds as the currency in the NHS is not where our focus should be. Wales has far more beds per head of the population than they do across our border in England. What we need are services that prevent the need for people to be in a hospital bed or to be able to be discharged from a hospital bed as fast as they possibly can. And when the leader of the opposition refers to the number of beds that have been reduced in the Welsh NHS, he will know that many, many of those beds are in the field of long-stay mental health and learning disability, where it’s been common currency across the Chamber that people should be better settled in the community and looked after there rather than in institutional care.
So, of course we will look carefully at the report of the college of emergency medicine. I see that it says that they believe we need to have nearly 600 extra beds in Wales. It also says that, in the south-west of England alone, they need 1,000, nearly, extra beds. So, this is not a Welsh phenomenon as far as the college is concerned. The Minister will have more to say about this later this afternoon. Our focus is on increasing capacity. Counting capacity just in the number of hospital beds that we have is not a currency that I think reflects the complexity of the modern health service.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Well, in fairness, the Royal College of Emergency Medicine and the consultants who are members of that organisation are experts in their field. They point to the ability to have additional beds reinstated within the health service as being one part of the solution. Everyone accepts that it's not the only part of the solution, but when you have the pressures in A&E departments—. For example, 22 per cent of people who presented to A&E departments in Wales last month waited eight hours or more, and 14 per cent of people waited 12 hours or more. Those numbers are unsustainable, and the Royal College of Emergency Medicine point to the fact that it's an inability for people to move out of the accident and emergency department and into the main hospital that is causing many of these delays.
The other point that they raise—and I accept that the bed issue is a UK-wide issue, but we are here discussing the responsibilities that you have here in Wales—is the ability to have the baseline staffing equivalent for consultants within accident and emergency departments. This is something that I have raised with you previously, First Minister. Regrettably, to date, not one A&E department in Wales reaches that baseline quota of consultants. We need 178 consultants to meet that baseline across the whole of Wales. We have 100 at the moment. That's the Royal College of Emergency Medicine's own figure. What progress, since I last raised this with you 12 months ago, has the Welsh Government made in making sure that we can get close to, or even match, the baseline figure that the Royal College of Emergency Medicine say we need to allow staff to be meeting that baseline staffing number in our accident and emergency departments?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, put the way that the leader of the opposition put it at the start of his question, I wouldn't disagree with him: beds are part of the solution to the pressures that the health service currently faces. But, it is part of the solution; it is not the only solution. I also agree with the point that the Royal College of Emergency Medicine makes about the pressures on the hospital system needing to have a whole-hospital response—that all the pressures should not be left at the door of the emergency department, while other parts of the hospital act as though that were not their problem.
This has always been part of the royal college's approach—that the solution has to be one in which the whole of the hospital plays its part. It is why, in the Cardiff and Vale local health board, they have had significant success in this calendar year in reducing waits in A&E departments, because they have been determined to make sure that the whole hospital regard that as a problem that they have to play a part in solving. So, on both of those issues, I agree with the points in the way that the leader of the opposition made them in his final question to me today. I don't have in front of me recruitment figures in those emergency departments, but I'm sure that we can supply them for him.

Leader of Plaid Cymru now—Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd, and may I, on behalf of these benches, echo all sympathies expressed for the family of Lord Morris of Aberavon? He said once that he had been a devolutionist from the very first moment when he joined the House of Commons, and that he passionately believed in the need to bring Government closer to the people. Well, we thank him for playing such a key part in making that a reality, and we remember him fondly.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: First Minister, we were all shaken, of course, by the tragic events that unfolded in Ely last month. Now, when asked if your Government should have been doing more for Ely, you said, and I quote,
'I think all layers of government and all aspects of government are right to look at themselves in the mirror and ask exactly that question. So, we will certainly be doing that as a Welsh Government.'
Now, in 2021, the charity Mind called on the Welsh Government to develop a community strategy that seeks to promote social capital, that seeks to invest in community assets and address many of the barriers faced by certain groups, so that everyone can benefit from living in resilient communities. Can you tell us how you might have taken their recommendations forward? Two weeks on, as part of your early reflection, how do you think that your Government could have done more to support not just the community of Ely, of course, but others like it, the length and breadth of Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, as far as community resilience on the Ely estate itself is concerned, there are a series of measures in which the Welsh Government has played its part in supporting those community groups that are such a feature of life on the estate. The Minister for Social Justice and I were in Ely at the beginning of the recess period. We were in a service that is directly supported by the local authority and by the Welsh Government itself. We were hearing from community groups about the range of services that, with Welsh Government support, are there to strengthen community resilience on the estate: the food pantry, the recycling of clothes and of uniforms, the foodbank, the cafe, the repair cafe, the library of things—all of those things supported through the Welsh Government—the fantastic work that sports clubs do on the estate with such success, the work, day in, day out, of faith groups on the estate, the new Cardiff West high school in Ely, the new Welsh-medium school in Ely, needing to be expanded because of the success it has experienced in attracting young people from the estate through its doors, the new health facility at Park View. There are a series of ways, thinking of that Mind report, in which, working with people on the estate—. And that was the key message that we took from that meeting, that, in order to have intensified community resilience, you have to start with the community itself, learn from them, and then make sure that public authorities and funding where it is possible come in to support them in the things that they believe will make the greatest difference.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you for that, and you're right, it's working with the community and working up. It is now five years, of course, since the Welsh Government phased out its Communities First programme, which did much of that, I have to say. Since then, poverty levels have remained shockingly high amongst all age groups. There have been only modest improvements since 1997, with Welsh poverty levels remaining among the highest in the UK. We all saw the figures yesterday showing that one in five children in every single county in Wales are living in poverty, and more so in some parts of our country. Now, First Minister, could you explain how you're implementing the lessons learnt from the Communities First programme, and will you heed the recommendation of the Bevan Foundation to reintroduce poverty reduction targets in Wales, particularly, of course, targets relating to child poverty?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I don't think that Llyr Gruffydd completely accurately captured the experience of child poverty during the devolution era, because he will recall that, in the first decade of devolution, child poverty in Wales fell by a third. So, the idea that it has just stayed where it was at the start of devolution is to disguise the fact that there was a decade of of progress, followed by a decade when child poverty has grown, and grown as the result of actions taken not in Wales, but by the Westminster Government.
Now, yesterday, the Cabinet discussed a draft of the child poverty strategy for Wales, which we are obliged to bring forward every three years. We hope to consult on that strategy starting later this month. It will set out five different objectives and priorities that we believe use the powers we have in Wales to their maximum extent, but is realistic in knowing that all the things that we can do could be wiped out in an instant by a Government determined, for example, to put a cap on the number of children who can be supported through the benefit system. We will not succeed in reducing child poverty in the way my party, and I'm very happy to be sure that his party too, would wish to see unless there is action at the other end of the M4, alongside all the things that we can do in Wales.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Indeed. You mentioned the child poverty strategy. One of the priority areas, of course, is mitigating the impact of welfare reform, which I suppose reiterates the point that you make in terms of actions by the UK Government. We will agree, of course, what the consequences are of 13 years of Tory austerity, which has left benefits, for example, at the lowest level in real terms in four decades, but I think we should be striving for better than simply mitigating the worst excesses of a callous and out-of-touch UK Government, and instead, of course, seek the powers that can actually unlock tangible and lasting improvements to the lives of the most vulnerable sectors of our society.
We can look, for example, to Scotland in this respect, where the Scottish Government's devolved powers over welfare have enabled it to create the Scottish welfare fund, which, up to June of last year, had provided more than 480,000 low income households with discretionary payments totalling over £350 million. So, on that basis, do you agree that the experiences—and mindful of the fact that you’ve told us that it’s actions taken not in Wales that have contributed largely to some of these challenges that our communities are now facing—do you agree that the experiences of the past 13 years have conclusively underlined the need for the further devolution of powers over welfare here in Wales, in line, of course, with the powers that they exercise in Scotland and in Northern Ireland, and will you make the case for that not only to the UK Government, but to make sure that it’s included in the next UK Labour manifesto?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Llyr Gruffydd for that. He might know that I was in Scotland last week. I was able to meet with the new First Minister of Scotland and to hear first-hand of some of the use that the Scottish Government has made of the powers that they have. I was also able to meet with Gordon Brown, former Prime Minister, to discuss the report that he has prepared. It contains, as Members will know, a clear recommendation that new powers over the administration of welfare should be devolved here to the Senedd, following the work that was done in the last Senedd term by the local government committee, chaired at the time by John Griffiths, and I was heartened to hear from him the strength of the case that he believes he has mobilised for that. I’m glad that Keir Starmer has said that he endorses the recommendations contained in the Gordon Brown report and my hope is that legislation to make effective those recommendations will be an early priority for an incoming Labour Government.

Unpaid Carers

Altaf Hussain AS: 3. What is the Welsh Government doing to improve outcomes for unpaid carers? OQ59587

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, since January 2022, the Welsh Government has allocated £42 million in additional funding to support unpaid carers. That includes £29 million to provide unpaid carers in receipt of carers allowance with a £500 payment; £4.5 million of that £42 million allows us to continue the carers support fund until 2025, and £9 million of it over a three-year period has allowed us to introduce a short breaks fund for unpaid carers.

Altaf Hussain AS: Thank you very much. First Minister, as it is Carers Week, I would like to pay tribute to the thousands of unpaid carers who save our NHS billions of pounds each year. Without their care and dedication, our health and care system would collapse. It is therefore vital that we fully support our unpaid carers. Sadly, we are failing in our duty. Unfortunately, a wide variety of evidence shows that unpaid carers in Wales are suffering severe health and financial impacts as a result of their caring responsibilities, and the recent evaluation of the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 found that it was failing to deliver the intended outcomes for unpaid carers, with their legal rights often not being met by the local authorities. First Minister, what action will your Government take to ensure that local authorities are meeting their legal obligation to support carers? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Altaf Hussain for that further set of questions, and, of course, I agree with him that more always could be done to support the fantastic work that unpaid carers carry out every single day, and thank him for reminding us that this is Carers Week. And, as one example of the things that we are able to do to support our local authorities and local efforts, on Friday of this week, there will be a launch of a new third sector grant scheme. It will be called Amser. It is a strand in the work we are doing to allow unpaid carers to take breaks from those responsibilities, to just have a chance to stand back from them, to build up a bit of additional resilience. The scheme will be launched here in the Norwegian church, and, as far as organisations on the ground in Altaf Hussain’s part of Wales, Carers Trust Crossroads West Wales, Swansea Carers Centre and Bridgend Carers Centre have all been successful in securing funding through this grant scheme to allow them to do more to support those unpaid carers in those localities.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Recent research has revealed that an estimated 450,000 people are providing unpaid care or support in Wales. That contribution, born out of love and affection for family and friends, is difficult to quantify. It's fair to say that this contribution to our community is immense, and it's hard to imagine where we would be without unpaid carers. Plaid Cymru acknowledges this incredible contribution as we mark Carers Week.
The report that revealed this staggering statistic also found that 35 per cent of carers surveyed said their health and well-being had been suffering as a result of caring. I note, in your answer earlier and in the Government statement this week, about funding for carers respite and short breaks. Given that more than a third of unpaid carers are suffering, are you confident that the funding goes far enough and will be used efficiently enough? Diolch.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, as I said in my answer to Altaf Hussain, there is always more that could be done if there was further funding that we had available. What we try to do is to increase the funding, and I've outlined some of the ways in which we have been able to do that. And then, of course it is right that that funding is used in the most effective way. The Minister has commissioned a rapid review of carers' rights at a local authority level. The Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru has undertaken that review, and we expect their recommendations to be with the Minister by the end of this month. That will give us a sense of how effectively that additional funding is being used. It is, I think, a huge strength in Wales that we have unpaid carers on that scale. They do, exactly as the Member has said, undertake those responsibilities out of a sense of love and of affection. We have a higher proportion of the population in Wales who carry out unpaid caring duties. I think that's a cause for celebration. I think it tells us something about the nature of the community that we are still lucky enough to have here in Wales, that people feel that that is the way in which they want to express their connection with others, family and friends, as Peredur Griffiths said—people who are important to them and to whom they feel a sense of duty and obligation—and are able to express that in providing care in that way. Our job is to support them in that task and to celebrate the work that they do.

Vikki Howells AC: First Minister, it is so important that we recognise and celebrate unpaid carers and the incredible contribution they make, as well as ensuring that they can access the support that they need. For the thousands of young carers in Wales at risk of becoming vulnerable when the level of caregiving and responsibility becomes too much, I very much welcome the Welsh Labour Government investment in the carers support fund and the £9 million national short break scheme, and young carers'access to them. What other activities does Welsh Government have planned to support our young carers, and could you also provide an update on the young carers ID card roll-out?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Vikki Howells for that. There was a time, Llywydd, when I was regularly asked about the young carers ID card roll-out. Now, £600,000 has been invested by the Welsh Government so that now that card is available in every part of Wales, and more than 1,700 young carers now possess such a card, and it allows those young carers to corroborate their status, whether that is in school or whether it's when they're going to a pharmacy to collect prescriptions, without having to go through every time answering difficult questions about why it is they are having to do what they need to do. That has been a great success here in Wales, and I'm very glad that every local authority now is part of that scheme. Thanks to Vikki Howells for pointing out that both the carers support fund and the national short breaks scheme in Wales are available to young carers as well as to adults.
And in terms of what more we're able to do, last year we heard from young carers themselves that they wanted an opportunity where they could get together themselves to learn from one another, to celebrate the work that they do, and nearly 300 young carers came together in Builth Wells over three days for the first ever Young Carers Festival in Wales. It was a great success, and we're going to provide additional funding, over and above the funding available last year, to repeat the festival this year, where we hope it will be even bigger and even better. And, in order to make sure that the voice of young carers themselves is heard loud and clear in the way that services are designed and delivered in Wales, we're also providing funding, through Children in Wales, to set up a new young carers advisory board. It will be run independently of the Welsh Government; it will be run through Children in Wales. Up to 12 young carers are being recruited, they'll come together once a quarter, they'll discuss key topics of relevance to them, and they'll be able to provide that direct feedback to officials and to Ministers to make sure, as Vikki Howells said, that the incredible contribution that they make is also always at the centre of our planning of these services.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, First Minister. Our carers face financial challenges, as we know. Many of them work full time, and then care on top of that; some have had to give up their roles and work part time, but financial issues are a real challenge for our unpaid carers. One in four of the carers in Wales report that they've had to cut down on heating or eating. At the Hay Festival last week, you spoke about the importance of universal basic income, potentially, for our unpaid carers. Is this something the Welsh Government would want to explore, either now or in the future? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you very much, and thank you for the invitation to be at the festival in Hay.

Mark Drakeford AC: It was very interesting, in front of that audience, to see the level of interest in universal basic income and the work that the Welsh Government is already doing through the major pilot we have with young people leaving the care system. I hope that we will be able to learn some important lessons from that experiment.
As I tried to explain in my answer at Hay, there are many aspects of the current system that have some characteristics of a universal basic income. The carers allowance is, in its very modest and unsatisfactory way, a step towards there being a universal basic income that recognises the role that carers play. And one of the great claims that is always made for a universal basic income is that it would recognise the work done in caring and domestic work in the same way as work carried out in the workplace is recognised and rewarded. So, while I can't make any commitments this afternoon to where we would go next with our own universal basic income pilot, the fact that we are having that in Wales, and the opportunity it will give us to learn lessons about how it works, where it works, how it might work better, will, I think, be of great interest to people who argue more generally about the benefits of such an approach and, quite certainly, including people who carry out those caring responsibilities.

Bus Services

Carolyn Thomas AS: 4. Have all Welsh Government departments carried out an assessment of the impact of the current public bus transport emergency? OQ59600

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, regional planning teams have been established to review bus networks in their area. They will consider how to prioritise funding for a sustainable network that reflects new post-COVID travel plans, and that includes considering the impact on communities and their access to public services.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Thank you for the answer. I'm really concerned about the impacts on education transport, transport to health appointments, social isolation, economy, and jobs. The view is we need to cap fares and a campaign to get people back onto buses, using them confidently.
On Saturday, I used a bus to Holywell dance festival, via Mold market, using the 1Bws ticket, which can be used anywhere across Wales—it's £6.00 using different operators. I used the Traveline Cymru website, which told me which bus to use, which bus stand, which operator, and which number. There's also an app that shows the maps, and I found it really, really clear and simple to follow. They've also got a phone number for people that don't use the internet.
So, I would like to ask if Welsh Government would be able to lead a campaign, working with operators, bus drivers, perhaps the older persons' commissioner—all these departments that will be affected—councils—we can all work together—a concerted effort to promote Traveline Cymru, to promote these concessionary passes, and get people back using buses.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I thank Carolyn Thomas for that, and it's very good to hear of her own experience over the last weekend; the 1Bws ticket in north Wales is the largest multi-operator capping scheme anywhere in the United Kingdom, so it's really good to hear of her own very positive experience of using it.
I'm very happy to confirm, Llywydd, that the Welsh Government will play our part very actively, alongside Transport for Wales, industry partners and the trade unions to mount a campaign to get people back onto buses, because the best way of protecting services is to use them, and the biggest challenge we face in the bus industry is the fact that while costs have gone up by 25 per cent in recent times, patronage is still down by 15 per cent compared to pre-pandemic levels. So, a campaign—and I'm quite sure that there will be Members across the Chamber who will want to be part of such a campaign—to remind people of the importance of bus services, to urge people to make use of them, will help us all to make sure that we're able to sustain a public service bus network for the future.

Food Policy

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 5. What are the underlying principles of the Welsh Government's food policy? OQ59597

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Huw Irranca-Davies for the question, Llywydd. The underlying principles are based, among other things, on those set out in the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, which commits to the pursuit of a healthier Wales, a prosperous Wales and a Wales that’s resilient against global shocks, whether that be climate change or disrupted food supplies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you, First Minister. I’m sure that the First Minister will have followed the debate on the proposed Food (Wales) Bill recently with a great deal of interest. Perhaps in a quiet moment he may even have read my recent article on this issue, which called for urgent action now that doesn't require changes to the law, while also considering areas where legislation could be useful, including in public procurement and even the right to safe, nutritious and affordable food, and food justice—a long-standing campaign of the co-operative party, of course.
In response to the debate, the Minister gave an assurance that more cross-Government work on food would take place, and a strong commitment to work with the Wales coalition of organisations and people who want to see change in this area. First Minister, how can be pursue this work now with the urgency that is needed, and will you commit to promoting food justice and food policy that is more co-ordinated and sustainable in Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Huw Irranca-Davies for those supplementary questions. I did have an opportunity to follow the debate that took place in the Senedd. I know that many people highlighted issues set out in Peter Fox’s legislation. There were some important issues contained there and there are many things, as Huw Irranca suggested, that we can do without the need for legislation.
In the Minister’s response to the debate, I believe that she said that I’ve agreed to chair a meeting where we can draw people from across Government together—Ministers and senior officials—in order to accelerate the work that we’re doing now in order to create a community food strategy for the future, which is of course contained in our agreement with Plaid Cymru. So, that meeting has been arranged; it’s taking place a week today. I look forward to that meeting. Now, we can use the time that our officials have to focus on what we can do to do more in the area of food. To be clear, we have drawn together everything that we do as a Government with others working in the area, to bring more energy to the work that we as Government can do when we do collaborate with others.

Peter Fox AS: I thank Huw Irranca-Davies for posing the question and, First Minister, for your answer. The last time we sat in this Senedd, First Minister, I'm afraid the Labour group and the sole Liberal Democrat Member rejected the Food (Wales) Bill, to the disappointment of many around Wales. Stakeholders from all facets of the Welsh food system came together like never before behind the Bill, including those from academia, from food producers, their unions, environmentalists, conservationists, councils, health boards and food alliances, just to name a few, and all agreed that things had to change here to create a joined-up and sustainable food system, with food security and the well-being of future generations at its core, and surely, all of those people and all of those organisations can't be wrong, First Minister. And you've partly answered my question about what decisive actions will you now, and the Government, take, to show the commitment to creating a holistic and joined-up approach to food policy in Wales.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I thank Peter Fox for that and, of course, I understand how any Member who puts the effort I know he will have put into the designing and the promotion of his Bill will have experienced when the Bill didn't succeed on the floor of the Senedd. But I hope he takes some comfort from the fact that the essential difference between the Government and himself was not on the objectives of his Bill. It's not what he was trying to achieve; it was our feeling that there were better and more effective ways in which we could reach those objectives. So, the problem was with the methods, not with the ambition.
As I've explained in my answer to Huw Irranca-Davies, I made a commitment, which the Minister relayed, to chair a meeting across the Welsh Government, to make sure that we now concentrate our energy and our effort on making sure that, cross-Government, those things that we need to make sure are joined together so that we get the maximum impact, that that effort is being felt across the whole of the Welsh Government, as we build towards the development and the publication of the community food strategy to which we are committed.

Support for Businesses in Blaenau Gwent

Alun Davies AC: 6. How is the Welsh Government supporting businesses in Blaenau Gwent? OQ59627

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the Welsh Government uses all the levers available to us, we work with a range of partners, including Blaenau Gwent County Borough Council, to support businesses in the area. The Business Wales service is the first port of call for any business in Blaenau Gwent in need of such support.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the First Minister for that response. I'm also grateful to the First Minister and to the Minister for Economy for the energy and the urgency with which you have responded to the closure of Tillery Valley Foods Ltd in Abertillery, but also Avara Foods in the constituency of my colleague Peter Fox, in Abergavenny, which employed many people from Blaenau Gwent. On both occasions, the Welsh Government has worked with the local authority, worked with officers and councillors in Blaenau Gwent and, indeed, the Department for Work and Pensions, to take care of people who have lost their jobs at both of those employers, and I think we're all very grateful to you for that level of urgency and concern.
But we also need to do more than that, First Minister. We're investing in the A465 as an economic corridor that can drive growth in the Heads of the Valleys. Do you agree with me, First Minister, that the Heads of the Valleys is an ideal place for businesses to either locate or to grow? And will the Welsh Government continue to bring all its resources to bear on developing the Heads of the Valleys as an economic region that can drive growth and eliminate poverty in the Heads of the Valleys region?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I thank Alun Davies for what he said about the urgency with which the Minister in particular, I know, has responded to the very sad developments and the major loss of jobs in that community. I wish that we had had a more ready response from the ultimate owners of the company, which would have allowed us and, I believe, the management on the spot, to have done more to promote the real possibility of that company continuing to operate at that site. I'm glad that there have been opportunities already to bring more than 20 employers together—employers looking for skilled workers—to recruit people from Tillery Valley Foods.
I very much agree with the wider points that the Member has made; the economic corridor that the Heads of the Valleys road now provides is an opportunity for businesses looking to locate or to expand to take advantage of the connection there will be from the large centres of population in the English midlands, right down to the south-west of Wales. There is land available, there are skilled people available, there is connectivity available, and there is certainly the political will available to maximise the economic impact of that investment across the whole of the Heads of the Valleys area.

Attracting Major Business Investment

James Evans MS: 7. What is the Welsh Government's strategy for attracting major business investment into Wales? OQ59626

Mark Drakeford AC: Our strategy is to promote Wales internationally as a location for investment by focusing particularly on those areas of the economy where Wales has international-class capabilities. That includes cyber, compound semiconductors, fintech, life sciences and renewable energy.

James Evans MS: I'd like to thank you for your answer, First Minister. I've been contacted by a major international company that wants to invest between £100 million and £150 million in a research and development centre in my constituency. This is going to provide massive job opportunities for people in my area. However, the company has told me that engagement with the Welsh Government's economic department has been slow, so much so that they're thinking of taking that investment abroad. I'm sure you'd agree with me that if we do want major investment, these companies need decisions decisively and very quickly to make sure they can make those decisions. First Minister, what assurances can you give me that the Welsh Government is acting on business interests quickly, to make sure they come to fruition? If I provide you with the details of this company, will you meet with them, and me, to make sure we can bring this much-needed investment into my constituency?

Mark Drakeford AC: Of course, I would be very grateful to the Member if he were to supply the details of any such company, and then I and the Minister for Economy will be able to look to see what has happened already, and where, if we can be, we can be of more assistance. Because, of course, the Welsh Government wishes to do everything we can to follow up on those opportunities. It's how we have persuaded KLA to carry out its expansion in Newport, with over 350 new jobs. It's why Airbus says it wants to recruit a 1,000 new people to work in its factory in Broughton. It's why, in the Member's own constituency, in Airflo, Welsh Government investment is allowing that company to support its plans to quadruple exports to North America.
Wherever there are genuine opportunities for us to play our part in companies coming to provide good quality, reliable investment in Wales, that's what we will want to do. It's one of the things, Llywydd, that investors say to us—the difference in dealing with a stable Government here in Wales, compared to attempting to deal with, what would it be, the eighth or ninth Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy in the last couple of years—[Interruption.] Well, it is what they say to us. Let me just—[Interruption.] I am simply telling you what companies say to us—that when they deal with Wales, they have a stable landscape, they have a set of arrangements that they know are available, they have stability at the political level. For them, that is a very significant contrast with the experience of trying to deal with a UK Government where 'stability' is hardly the watchword.

Finally, question 8, Samuel Kurtz.

Road Safety in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire

Samuel Kurtz MS: 8. What is the Welsh Government doing to improve road safety in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire? OQ59614

Mark Drakeford AC: Can I thank the Member for that question? We work closely with Carmarthenshire and Pembrokeshire councils, the authorities responsible for road safety in their counties. Since 2019, they have received over £5 million of road safety funding. This year, they’ll receive over £2.5 million to implement the new 20 mph speed limit—the biggest road safety initiative in a generation.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Prif Weinidog, you'll be aware that I've raised in this Siambr before the dangerous nature of the A477 trunk road in my constituency—a road that stretches from Pembroke Dock to St Clears, and is one of the main arteries in and out of west Wales. From speeding through Milton, a dangerous junction for the Red Roses and Llanddowror exit, or, most notably, the Nash fingerpost junction, the A477 needs a complete and thorough review. This junction in particular saw its third fatality when my constituent Ashley Rogers tragically lost his life only three weeks ago. The Welsh Government have known about the safety issues at this junction for over a decade. In Ashley's memory, his friend Elliott Morrison has started a petition to introduce comprehensive safety measures at the A477 fingerpost junction, and it already has over 4,000 signatures. Prif Weinidog, let's not wait for it to get 10,000, 20,000, or however many thousand signatures; can you commit now that your Government will undertake the necessary safety improvements of the A477 Nash fingerpost junction, to ensure that these matters do not happen, and no more fatalities occur at this terrible junction? Diolch.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Sam Kurtz for raising this issue. I was very sad indeed to read of the accident in which a young man lost his life, and I know there's a family who will be grieving for him. It is because the Welsh Government has been aware of the concerns raised, particularly about the Nash fingerpoint junction, that a report has already been undertaken by the Welsh Government and the South Wales Trunk Road Agent to investigate those near misses and collisions that have been reported at the site. Because we have that report, then, in this financial year, we will begin to implement the recommendations of that report—recommendations that have short, medium and long-term measures included in them. We'll begin with the immediate ones—the signing, the road marking, the minor junction layout changes for visibility improvements, and action to prevent u-turnsat the junction. All of that comes as a result of the work that has already been carried out. Further larger-scale, longer-term options will also be investigated, once we see the impact of the immediate measures that we're able to take in this financial year, arising from the reports already assembled.

I thank the First Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

The next item, therefore, is the business statement and announcement, and I call on theTrefnydd to make that statement—Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. There are three changes to this week's business. Firstly, the statement on the Government response to the second phase of the sustainable farming scheme co-design has been postponed until 11 July. Secondly, a suspension of Standing Orders is needed to enable us to debate the Allocation of Housing and Homelessness (Eligibility) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2023 this afternoon. And finally, subject to a further suspension of Standing Orders, we will debate an LCM on the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you, Trefnydd, for your statement today. Can I call for an oral statement on digital inclusion from the Welsh Government? There's been a lot of concern expressed by the older people's commissioner, Audit Wales and Age Cymru about the difficulties that some older people, in particular the over-75s, are having in being able to access some public services and to apply for things as simple as blue badges, or even a bus pass. Obviously, local authorities are trying to take advantage of the technology that's now available to them to streamline processes—we understand that—but it is important that the alternatives to online applications are actually also being equally promoted, particularly to those who do not use online services. Around a third of people in Wales who are over 75 do not feel confident or don't have the competence to be able to use the online services that are available. We know that our NHS is of course also shifting in this direction, with many more services available through the NHS app, which is something that I very much welcome, and even the NHS 111 service being online. But clearly, these things aren't suitable for everybody, so I would like a statement brought forward from the Government on digital inclusion in Wales, to make sure that older people aren't missing out when it comes to being able to access these important services.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. It is really important that as many people as possible are able to take advantage of these. As you say, there are many more apps coming along, and people need to be able to use them. I think the age group that you referred to is clearly an age group where the Welsh Government have targeted a great deal of support. I remember, when it was in my own portfolio, going along to sessions that local councils had brought forward with support from Welsh Government, and it is something we continue to support.

Cefin Campbell MS: May I request a statement on digital connectivity and access to broadband? Like many constituents, I was sorry to hear that Broadway Partners had called the administrators in last week. This company has been involved with building a full fibre broadband network in rural areas of Carmarthenshire, Pembrokeshire, Powys and Ceredigion. I know of many projects across the region that are halfway through, with many residents concerned about the future of these schemes. I'm also aware of the problems that persist in many rural areas in relation to other companies that are also facing difficulties in terms of providing these services, with increasing costs of introducing fibre having an impact on progress. I am concerned about the impact of delays or even more far-reaching changes on businesses and individuals. I understand that many elements of digital connectivity lie in Westminster. Could you make a statement on Broadway specifically? I'd also ask what support the Government could give to those communities that have been impacted by this news.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch. Digital connectivity is just as important as digital inclusion. You will be aware that the Welsh Government has had a digital strategy now for about 12 years, and it's been really good to see the improvement that's been made in each iteration of that strategy going forward. Our chief digital officer ensures that, again, it's very much a cross-Government piece of work. I'm not aware of the company that you refer to. I think it probably would be better if you wrote to the Minister direct to find out a bit more about what contact he or his officials have had with the company and what support we could offer.

Alun Davies AC: Minister, we will all have seen the report published yesterday that demonstrated the growth in child poverty. In my constituency in Blaenau Gwent, child poverty is reaching over 30 per cent. It is an ongoing tragedy and emergency for children growing up across the country that in 2023 we are still seeing such high levels of poverty. I recognise, and I think people on all sides of the Chamber will understand, that many of these levers remain in London. But would it be possible for the Welsh Government to bring forward a statement on how the Welsh Government sees child poverty being addressed? What levers rest here in Wales that can be used by the Welsh Government to address child poverty? What levers in London should be used to address child poverty? We know that we've been let down consistently by the UK Treasury and by successive UK Governments, and we haven't seen the investment in Wales that we've seen in parts of England, Scotland and Northern Ireland. We also know that Brexit is having an ongoing impact, weakening our economy and enabling less economic activity to take place. But it's important that we recognise that nobody can walk away from children living in poverty; that nobody, wherever they sit in this Chamber, can turn their backs on child poverty; and nobody can turn away from the suffering of children up and down the country. Will the Welsh Government bring an urgent statement to this place addressing these issues?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. You raise a very important point. As you say, it's vital that tackling child poverty remains a priority for the Welsh Government. It is a cross-cutting theme as well in the budget planning. Every Minister has the responsibility in relation to that. We do have some levers, but they are restricted. As you say, a lot of them do lie with the UK Government. We know that to substantially reduce poverty levels really would require a radical change in the approach taken by the UK Government, but we do continue to do everything within our powers to support people and families through this cost-of-living crisis. The Minister for Social Justice will be bringing forward a new child poverty strategy by the end of this year, and she is working with partners—importantly, with children. I think it's over 3,000 children and young people, families and organisations that have engaged in the development of the revised child poverty strategy. That will be consulted on over the summer. I think, importantly, the children have told the Minister what they think needs to be done to make the biggest difference to their lives, and that's where we'll be focusing our efforts.

Natasha Asghar AS: Minister, can I please request a statement from the Minister for Climate Change about the toxic Tŷ Llwyd quarry in Ynysddu? Last week, I attended a public meeting with hoards of residents to discuss the ongoing worrying saga to discuss the next steps. For far too long, residents have been left in limbo and fear potentially harmful chemicals, particularly polychlorinated biphenyls, that are leaking out of the quarry and into the heart of their community. They've been passed from pillar to post, from Caerphilly County Borough Council to Natural Resources Wales and also the Welsh Government now. So, thankfully, more and more people are waking up to this serious situation, especially as there was an excellent segment on the BBC's Countryfileepisode a couple of weeks ago. Understandably, residents have had enough and want to see a solution to this long-running major problem, and a key to getting the ball rolling is by designating this area as contaminated land. So, a statement from the Minister outlining what discussions she's had with NRW and, perhaps, other authorities about this toxic quarry would be greatly appreciated. And also, will the Welsh Government commit to drawing up an action plan to solve this issue once and for all, because the people of Ynysddu deserve better than this and should not be neglected for any longer? Thank you so much, Minister.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I'm not aware of the quarry to which you refer, but you certainly talk about quite a range of partners. I don't think it would be best addressed by an oral statement. I think it would be better if you wrote to the Minister asking a question about if she's had any conversations with NRW, and perhaps, if she hasn't, she will do so, or, if she has, then she can let you know the information and advice that she's been given. But I think truly to bring everybody together, if there's been a public meeting, it would be very good for you to write to her direct.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Trefnydd, a report was published in February on the UK-wide Prevent programme. The scheme safeguards people vulnerable to radicalisation. Many of the areas that Prevent deals with fall under the auspices of Welsh Government. Following the publication of that independent review, can the Welsh Government provide an oral statement on the future of the Prevent programme in Wales and where this fits in with the Government's future vision for justice in Wales?
And secondly, Trefnydd, the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child published its report last week. The report is critical about the persistent discrimination and the overrepresentation of black, Asian, Muslim, Roma, Gypsy and Traveller children within the criminal justice system in England and Wales, and also living in poverty. It also criticised racism and bullying against children in disadvantaged situations. There is praise for the Welsh way of implementing rights for our children—for example, the lowering of the voting age and the abolishment of the defence of reasonable chastisement in Wales. One recommendation is to expand the eligibility criteria for state-subsidised childcare, and we have, of course, seen recent progress on this due to the co-operation agreement. Can we please, Trefnydd, have a comprehensive debate on this very important report in Welsh Government time? Diolch yn fawr.

Lesley Griffiths AC: In relation to your second question, the report to which you refer is currently being considered, and, as you say, in relation to childcare, that has been expanded considerably due to the co-operation agreement between our two parties.
I will ask the Minister for Social Justice to bring forward a written statement in relation to the work she's doing about the Prevent scheme.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Last night'sPanoramaprogramme raised serious concerns about the dominance in our diets of ultra-processed foods, which are adulterated with harmful chemicals to increase their profitability and preserve their shelf-life. Most worryingly, the programme highlighted the role of aspartame, an artificial sweetener used widely in processed foods as well as an alternative to sugar in hot drinks. Aspartame is linked with increased rates of cancer and other diseases, and the Food Standards Agency's reliance on the use of so-called experts whose advice on whether to ban aspartame has to be called into question where their research has been funded by multinational food interests who are desperate to keep aspartame on their list of go-to additives, clearly putting a question mark over the independence and rigour of the Food Standards Agency to protect citizens from products that are harmful to health. All of this illustrates the need to join up the dots on food policy, and which goes well beyond a community food strategy. So, could we have a statement from the Welsh Government on its strategy for eliminating ultra-processed foods in the public realm of schools, hospitals and care homes, as the Panorama programme just adds to the body of evidence from scientists, doctors and citizens that the chemicals in these ultra-processed products are harmful to human life.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I haven't had the opportunity to see thePanorama programme that was aired last night, but I certainly will do so. The scientific advisory committee on nutrition considered ultra-processed foods in June of last year, and they're now carrying out a scoping review of the evidence on ultra-processed foods and health, with a view to publishing a position paper on processed foods and health this summer. The Welsh Government remains committed to using the latest scientific consensus of established evidence to inform our consideration of ultra-processed foods, and we'll certainly consider the findings of the review once they're available.
Llywydd, when I leave the Chamber, I'm meeting with the Food Standards Agency, the FSA, along with my colleague the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being, and I'll certainly be very happy to raise the specific point Jenny Rathbone has just raised with me. The Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being will be making an oral statement later this month, on 27 June, to outline next steps in relation to price promotions and locations following a consultation on a healthy food environment following a summary-of-findings report that was published in January of this year.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I stand to request a statement from you, actually, as the Trefnydd, but more so in your capacity as Minister, on bovine TB testing. Now, as it stands, vets across Wales are being subjected to what is deemed by a lot of farmers as a completely illogical requirement. So, here in Wales they follow the TB chart when reading the tests, but the 'severe interpretation'—and that’s the actual description, as you will know, Minister—differs to England and Scotland. It means, for instance, that a cow that scores, for example, 7/7 is inconclusive in Wales. However, that very same cow scoring 7/7 in England and Scotland would be a pass, and too often I’m hearing from farmers who send them off, and then they are culled, and then they come back with negative results. Clearly, this is deeply distressing for our farmers.
Now, Scotland has been officially tuberculosis free since 2009, so the aim of ridding Wales of BTB is not a reasonable ground for a more severe reading. Farmers and vets have been unable to point me to any scientific evidence supporting your more severe chart. Would you come forward, please, with a statement detailing why your testing chart is more severe than Scotland and England? And will you look at reviewing this? Diolch.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. As the Member knows, I do an oral statement every year on TB eradication and our TB eradication programme and delivery plan. I not long ago did an oral statement, so rather than wait to have another one, which I will be doing probably in the autumn or winter term, I will certainly write to the Member on that point.

I thank the Trefnydd.

3. Statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services: Building Capacity through Community Care—Further Faster

The next item, therefore, will be item 3. This is the statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services on 'Building Capacity through Community Care—Further Faster'. I now call on the Minister to make her statement—Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr. Today, along with my colleague Julie Morgan, we are announcing that we will be directing up to £30 million of additional resource into supporting enhanced care in our communities. This is to avert a situation that we saw last winter with too many frail people being stranded in our hospitals. This is also part of a continuing journey towards rebalancing health support out of hospitals and closer to people's homes.
The recent winter months were the most challenging on record for the NHS and social care. We have witnessed sustained levels of high demand for urgent and emergency services. Our GP services are stretched and continue to see or talk to hundreds of thousands of patients every week. Our emergency departments remain extremely busy, and we also observed a 93 per cent increase in demand for red—life threatening—ambulance calls in March when compared to the same month in 2019. Now, collectively, this puts enormous pressure on all urgent and emergency services, and in particular the hospital system.
In this context, it is understandable that the instinct of many who were suffering was to seek support from emergency services. This is why we delivered an additional 670 step-down beds and community packages. Through the six goals programme, we made significant investments in increasing the scope and resilience of the 111 service, increasing capacity in urgent primary care centres and expanding same-day emergency care services to provide people with alternatives to attending busy emergency departments and admission to hospital. Now, if we hadn’t made these investments, the situation would have been far worse.
We are also aware of a range of challenges to hospital flow and in moving people back into their homes and communities. Again, the six goals programme is leading a significant piece of work to make improvements in this area. This system pressure and increased demand has happened despite the huge efforts of our brilliant health and social care workforce, and the NHS being the Welsh Government’s budget priority over many years.
Today, we are setting out measures to enhance support for older people and those living with frailty in their communities. Now, I want to be clear: this isn't about the workforce working harder. Our amazing health and care staff are already doing everything that they can. The challenge that I am setting today for all of us with a leadership role in health and social care is about how decision makers must reshape provision so that it's fit for the future.
Redirecting resources into the community was set out in our strategic plan, 'A Healthier Wales', and I have set out that addressing the issue of delayed transfers of care needs to be the number one priority for health boards this year, as, without improvement, it will be challenging to meet our waiting list targets and other issues. We need to move our focus from treating short-term episodes of ill health to one that meets the needs of more frail and elderly population with multiple health conditions.
A growing proportion of our population are living with frailty. It is estimated that, in less than 20 years, there will be nearly 150,000 more people aged 75 or older in Wales. That's equivalent to a town about the size of Newport. By 2038, almost one in five people in Wales will be aged over 70. Over the next 20 years, there is a projected increase of 61 in the Welsh population who are 85 and older. This is a huge success for our NHS over many decades and something to be proud of.Older people contribute hugely to Welsh society.
But a proportion of this growing population group will be living with frailty. Frailty is a health condition that is commonly experienced by older people. The presence of frailty affects the person's ability to bounce back from illness or stressful life events, and sometimes means that they don't recover to the previous level of independence.
But it is not a condition for which nothing can be done. Early recognition by community professionals and the provision of support at the right time can delay its onset or its progression. But, what is clear is that hospital is not the right setting for the most frail, where they are likely to become deconditioned, lose muscle mass, and be exposed to viruses. And, while they are in hospital, many care packages are suspended and take a long time to reinstate, causing many to stay in hospital much longer than necessary.
With demographic change, however, we need to reshape our health and care responses. To speed up this change, I have agreed a range of investments, along with Julie Morgan, linked to our Further Faster programme, as part of the up to £30 million of funding that we will be allocating to this area.
Now, this includes delivering extra hours of reablement services across Wales; ensuring that every local authority has a technology-enabled care responder service by the winter to support the use of our latest monitoring technology; funding to support moves towards 24/7 community nursing; strengthening community specialist palliative care; and funding additional social prescribers and referral options to ease the burden on more front-line specialist services.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Eluned Morgan AC: On top of this, now that the clusters have accelerated their development as mechanisms for local services to collaborate, they are well placed to identify the people in their communities who most need care and to agree a care plan tailored to their individual needs and circumstances. With this resource, we need to go faster, in the sense of speeding up delivery of measures to strengthen place-based care. And we need to go further in thinking creatively of new ways to support people living with multiple health conditions, and we need to do this together with public bodies like local government, working with independent providers, housing associations, the third sector, unpaid carers and other key partners in a more purposeful way.
We will use the latest technology and we will redeploy staff and resources from hospitals into the community to ensure that people living with frailty are supported to live and receive treatment at home as a safe alternative to hospital admission when required. Where a hospital stay is needed, responsive community care will enable that stay to be as short as possible, by enabling people to recover safely and comfortably at home.
Enhanced community care will focus on preventing people’s health from deteriorating, and intervening early, hopefully, will prevent a crisis and prevent avoidable hospital admissions. This will also have the positive effect of reducing pressure on NHS hospital beds, reducing demand on a finite social care resource, and will help to relieve the pressure on the army of unpaid carers across Wales. And this will complement the forthcoming announcement that the Deputy Minister for Social Services, Julie Morgan, will be making, to set out a plan for strengthening social care in response to the recommendations of the expert group on the national care service.
As we move forward, it’s critical that national Government, local government and the NHS work as one on this. We can see that there are opportunities to use resources more effectively across the system by taking an integrated approach. Therefore, Further Faster is going to provide a real focus of what more we can do for people living with frailty. It won’t be easy, but we do have a clear plan, and we will build capacity through community care further, faster. Thank you.

Gareth Davies AS: Good afternoon, Minister. Could I thank you for bringing forward today’s statement on ‘Building Capacity through Community Care—Further Faster’? Could I also thank you for releasing this morning’s written statement on the issue prior to the oral statement on the floor of the Senedd this afternoon?
As we know, Minister, community care often acts as the front door of the NHS, and today’s announcement that up to £30 million of additional resources will be directed into supporting enhanced care in our communities and rebalancing health support out of hospitals and closer to people’s homes is, of course, welcomed on this side of the Chamber, and this is also more important than ever in supporting our increasingly older and frail population. And as somebody who worked in the NHS for over 10 years, I’ve seen first hand the importance of building capacity through community care, but also the sheer high level of demand and pressure facing community care.
Firstly, Minister, in your statement, you outlined that you’ll be working jointly with local authorities and the NHS to make rapid progress and to deliver on your aims, which we welcome. As you state, it’s estimated that, in less than 20 years, there’ll be nearly 150,000 more people aged 75 or older in Wales, and a key concern of mine is ensuring that the most vulnerable in society receive dignity and respect whilst receiving care. So, in light of this, Minister, what action are you taking to ensure that this does occur?
And secondly, Minister, a proportion of our growing population group will be living with frailty, and I’m sure you’ll agree with me that it’s crucially important that we try and maintain as much independence and regular day-to-day activities as we can, with traditional hospital settings not being the best for all. So, how do you foresee today’s announcement supporting those living with frailty to live their lives as fully as possible?
Thirdly, it’s welcoming that the latest technology and resources will be used as a safe alternative to hospital admission when required. Maximising technology is something that we’ve continued to call for on these sides of the benches and reducing pressure on NHS hospitals is vitally important. So, I was wondering what initial assessments you have made regarding how technology can tackle this problem.
And finally, Minister, I'm sure you'd agree with me that those working in community care do an exceptional job. However, the work they carry out is not often recognised, which sadly puts many people off a career in the NHS and in community care. On these sides of the benches, we continue to call for a Welsh minimum care wage of £10 per hour. What action do you think can be taken to eradicate this and to highlight the fantastic work that is carried out, but also the fantastic benefits of carrying out this work too?
In closing, Minister, I'd like to thank you for bringing forward today's statement, and on these sides of the benches, we share your ambition of building capacity through community care and support our communities. Thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Gareth. Thank you very much. I'm really pleased to hear that there is support from the Conservative benches on this, because this is a shift, so people need to understand that we are rebalancing, which does suggest a shift away from hospital care into the community. But certainly, all the evidence suggests that people want to stay at home as long as they can. They want to live at home, and importantly, they want to die at home. So, what we need to do is to allow them the opportunity to get the support in their home as much as possible. In order to do that, we have to pull the resources out of secondary care and put them into the community. We've had five months of discussion to build to this, to make sure that everybody understands what we're trying to do here, working with all of the health boards, with the local authorities—this is a partnership approach. Everybody needs to get on the same page on this, because actually, we need to avoid duplication as well. We know that health boards are responsible for health, and local government is responsible for care, and actually, increasingly, we're going to see these overlap. So, it makes sense for us to be working together in this important area, and you're quite right about preserving the dignity of those people.
What's key as far as I'm concerned is to try and make sure that we put the support in place before the problem arises. We're got an issue of delayed transfers of care, so once people get into hospital, how do we get them out quickly? But the holy grail here is to get the support in before, so that they don't need to go into the hospital in the first place. One of the things that we've been doing is we've been talking to the health boards about how we can use the clusters as a mechanism to identify, for example, the most frail 1 per cent of people in their communities and what do we do to wrap the care around those, for a start. Obviously, as we get more resources and as we shift those resources, we can put that support around more and more of those frail people.
On the digital technology, we're in the foothills of where we need to be in relation to digital technology. There's a real challenge when it comes to human resources in the healthcare system, so we do have to be creative, especially in some of those areas like the rural areas, where it's becoming increasingly difficult to recruit. We've got to be creative, and I think technology gives us the opportunity to do that. For example, only 10 local authorities in Wales have a technology-enabled care responder service, so we need to make sure that that's available in 22 local authorities, and that's part of what we'll be doing with this measure.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you to the Minister for this afternoon's statement. I do welcome this additional investment in a hospital-at-home programme. Not many weeks have passed since one of the workers of Môn Enhanced Care, MEC, met with some of the Minister's officials in order to make the case as to why we on Ynys Môn see a real value in that service and want to see it being rolled out to other parts of Wales. I'm pleased to see investment in this; I know it's something that the Minister has referred to in Carmarthenshire in the past. We also need to see far more of this. The statement itself, of course, highlights once again the scale of the problem that we are facing, so I have to say that I am concerned about the amount of money available and what can be delivered with £30 million, and that we'll simply be scratching the surface, but that's surely a frustration for the Minister too. My point is that we must ensure that investment is made in this area.
The problem of delays in transferring people from hospital is a very real one. I do believe it's a real problem that we have lost so many community beds over the past decades. We're not just talking about mental health beds, as the First Minister referred to earlier this afternoon—we are talking about the loss of beds in community hospitals, and I have spoken to clinicians who have missed those beds very much in terms of providing a step-down service for patients so that they can recover having left the general hospital. We occasionally mix up between hospital and 'the hospital', the district general hospital. Yes, we do need to get patients out of those hospitals as soon as possible, but we often need that additional capacity in a cottage hospital, a community hospital, call it what you will, in order to take the pressure off the DGH. What the Government did, and we welcomed that as a step, was to talk about creating hundreds of additional beds within communities, working with health boards, working with local authorities. The Minister has, this afternoon, stated that 670 additional beds had been provided. One question here to the Minister. I am aware of very real concerns in local government that they have had to shoulder the cost of the provision of many of these beds. Can we have an explanation from the Minister as to what support has been provided? What additional support can be provided to local government so that these additional beds can be commissioned? They want to be partners, but, of course, they are also facing grave financial challenges of their own.
One further question from me, and it's a very simple question. We've had a description today of the kinds of developments that the Government intends to put in place through this new investment—investment in technology and so on—but at the heart of our capacity to provide community care, we have community staff, of course. The technology is important, but the staff are crucial. I agree, of course, with the Minister who praised the work that our staff do, but isn't the one fundamental thing that we need to see happening the extension of section 25B of the Nurse Staffing Levels (Wales) Act 2016 so that community nursing is sufficiently staffed to provide the kind of support that patients need in order to stay within their communities?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. Well, I was determined not to go through a winter like the one that we did last year, and that is difficult, to make a decision when it comes to funding, that you're going to do the same thing, but with less money, and you think you'll get a different result. And what we're doing here, therefore, is doing something different—we're shifting the funding. I'm sure it's not going to be enough—it's never going to be enough—but we are going faster, at greater pace than people had anticipated, and I think that's important.
In terms of the step-down beds, what we did over the winter was we increased the number of step-down beds, and that was part of partnership working between local government and health boards. I do think that it was a partnership. In terms of the funding, I think everyone is struggling at the moment, but local government is, perhaps, struggling more, if anything, particularly last year, so the health boards did provide a great deal of their funding into the system too. So, I do think it's worth looking at who was doing what. But it was a partnership, and we do have to get to a point where we stop the discussion about this—who put more in? The people at home, who are suffering, don't care who is providing the service. They just want that service, and we have to get rid of the difficulties for them. We need to ensure that the system is working, we need to stop the debate about who's doing what. That's part of what we're doing here—we're trying to do it together. And I want to go further. I want to—. At some point, I would like to see that our budgets are aligned when it comes to care for adults. but that's a difficult path to tread. But that is my vision. But perhaps people aren't quite ready for that yet.
In terms of staffing, staffing is vital to anything that we do, and that's what we're trying to do here, is to provide more staff in our communities. Some of those staff that I'm eager to see are a great deal more of reablement workers, so people—. We know that, if people receive reablement help, help to get back on their feet—. Rather than focusing on what the package of care that they need is, we know that, if they receive a reablement package, we see that 70 per cent less demand for that particular care package. That's why I'm very eager to see whether we can increase the number of reablement workers. If we do that, then there'll be less demand on social services, and I think that's going to be of assistance to everyone. That's why I hope that what we will see is more community support workers and community assistants, because we know that it's very difficult to recruit. It's easy to say, 'Well, bring in new legislation to ensure safe staffing levels', but, when you can't recruit, that is very difficult. What's the point of having legislation when you can't meet the aims of that legislation? So, what we need is more help surrounding the nurses in our communities, and that's certainly part of our vision here.

Finally, Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you very much. Apart from staying up too late watching Mikey and the wonderful nurses of Hywel Dda last night, which I do recommend to you, about 10 days ago, I had a meeting with the cabinet member for adult social care in Cardiff, and I think the excellent work that she and her team are doing to ensure that people are not going into hospital if they don't need to, and are getting them out of hospital as quickly as they are ready to go—. So, I very much support the work you and the Deputy Minister are doing to go further and faster on pulling resources out of secondary care into better community care.
So, what Cardiff has is a pink army of social care workers who are not only working in the emergency department to work out whether an individual actually needs to come into hospital or whether we can provide a better package of care for them at home, they're going on ward rounds as well to ensure that the right questions are being asked about the types of services and support they're going to need when they are medically ready to go home or go into the community. They have established some step-down beds in one of the larger care homes in my constituency to remobilise people to do the tasks they knew how to do before they had an operation, or a fall, or whatever it might be.
So, I'm keen to understand how well this sort of pink army initiative is being developed in other health boards, because obviously I only know about my own area, as well as how we spread that good practice that should be going on across Wales.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much, Jenny. You watched a lot of telly last night—you watched Panorama and you watched Mikey and the nurses of Hywel Dda. So, I'm pleased to hear that you're getting a lot of intelligence from some good BBC.
So, just in terms of community nursing, I know this is something you've been championing for a long time, and I'm really pleased that in this proposal, what we've got here, is a move towards 24/7 nursing in the community. That's where we've got to get to, and part of what we're doing here is to make sure that there's availability for an extra 10 hours a day, and that should include a Saturday and Sunday, because, just because you're frail and elderly, if you drop ill on a Saturday, there are no community nurses around. So, we have to make sure we've got cover, or they'll finish up in A&E. So, it makes sense—let's put that support in the community.
And you're quite right also, we need to think about the step down and learning from example, and one of the things we've been doing, of course, with the regional partnership boards, is we've put £144 million on the table so that we can learn from good practice. So, I hope that people are looking at that example and learning from that example so we can spread it across Wales, if it stands up to scrutiny. And this is one of the challenges I keep on making to the regional partnership boards: just because it was made here, doesn't mean that, actually, it's the best project. We need to get all of this measured up against objective criteria and what are the outcomes, because, unless we can measure the outcomes, just because it's made here doesn't mean it's a good thing. So, that's quite a difficult message for a lot of organisations that are doing great work, but it's just not delivering quite as much as the project next door. So, the key thing for me is that we measure outcomes as well.
There are lots, of course, of community beds still available. I was very pleased, after going to Urdd Eisteddfod, to pop into the Llandovery hospital, just to have a look. Poor little loves, when you just rock up and say 'hi', but, actually, really great to see the kind of support that's given there, within the community. So, that is available. And what we do need to do, though, is to strengthen, I think, specialist palliative care. So, end-of-life care is absolutely crucial. People don't want to die in hospital. But what we've got to do is—. If you ask what matters to the person themselves, very often they're very happy to say, 'Right, no, I'm staying at home', and it's the family that's saying, 'Get into hospital'. So, we've got to actually make sure we have a better conversation with families about what matters to the patient themselves and to make sure that they have more confidence, knowing that the support is there in the community to look after their loved one at home. So, making specialist nurses available overnight is also crucial and part of what of we're proposing here.

Thank you, Minister.

4. Statement by the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language: Elective Home Education

The next item is a statement by the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language, elective home education, and I call on the Minister to make the statement—Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. New statutory guidance on elective home education, published on 12 May, supports local authorities in their duties to ensure all children are receiving a suitable education and to ensure the educational needs of all children are met. Local authorities have a duty to establish the educational status of children in their area and to ensure the education they are receiving is suitable. This guidance supports local authorities in discharging these legal duties. The new statutory guidance does not change the existing legal definition of a suitable education, but helps local authorities to apply it in the context of elective home education. The guidance acknowledges that home education is unique for each child and will be underpinned by the families' own educational philosophies. The guidance is clear that families who home educate do not have to teach the national curriculum or any other specified curriculum or meet any criteria for the number of learning hours.This enables parents to give their child an individually tailored educational experience, considerate of their child's age, ability, aptitude and any additional learning needs the child may have.
Our guidance also sets out the expectation that local authorities should meet with all electively home-educated children and their families. Meeting with children and families provides the local authority the opportunity to understand the educational philosophy adopted by parents and the main areas of learning that are being provided. It will also provide an opportunity for electively home-educated children to share their views about the education they are receiving. As well as helping to establish the suitability of education being provided, meeting with the child will also provide an opportunity for local authorities to discuss any support parents would like from local authorities and other public services. This could include access to exam centres, local authority counselling services, and school-age nursing services. The guidance is supported by a wider package of support for home-educated children, to enhance their learning experience and development opportunities. Informed by feedback from home-educating families, the package comprises the opportunity to sit exams in a local exam centre; advice about and facilitation of local authority counselling services and Careers Wales support; an agreement in principle for home-educating families to borrow more books from local authority libraries; access to Welsh language support; and free access to Cadw sites. This is complemented by a new home educator's handbook, which will be published during the week commencing 12 June. The handbook is intended to be a useful guide for home-educating parents, particularly those who may be new to home educating.

Jeremy Miles AC: It's important that the effectiveness of the elective home education guidance is monitored and evaluated. To allow sufficient time for local authorities to embed the guidance, an evaluation will begin in the summer of 2024. This could include exploring whether the guidance is useful for identifying home-educated children who are not receiving a suitable education, and the extent to which any support put in place by local authorities to support home educators is effective.
Additionally, the Welsh Government receives data about elective home-educated children from Data Cymru on an annual basis in the month of May. We are currently discussing additional data needs with Data Cymru; for example, collecting monitoring data about the number of parents and families being seen by a local authority. This, along with the evaluation, will give us a good indication of the effectiveness of the guidance from the point of view of both local authorities and the families themselves.

Jeremy Miles AC: To further support our commitment to the success and well-being of every learner, I will be making regulations that will require a database of children who are not registered at a school, not in receipt of education other than at school, or who are not known to the local authority as being suitably home educated. The database will identify children who are potentially not receiving a suitable education. We intend to consult on the database regulations by early 2024.

Jeremy Miles AC: I intend to pilot the database for a year, commencing in the spring of 2025, to understand the extent to which the data is useful in helping local authorities to identify children who are potentially not receiving a suitable education. At the same time, I will publish draft guidance to support the local authorities involved in the pilot to understand the duties placed on them under the regulations, and how the database should work in practice.
I am proud of our record of upholding children's rights, and it is this principle that sits at the heart of these proposals.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Minister, thank you for your statement today, although I have to say I'm quite concerned by the statement. We in the Welsh Conservatives place parental choice above all else in importance when considering a child's education, and believe that this decision should be respected to the fullest extent by the Welsh Government and local authorities, so long as the well-being of the child is confirmed. The pandemic lockdowns led to a sharp rise in home education in Wales, with a number of these families choosing to continue with it after lockdowns were lifted and regular schooling resumed. Although this is concerning and poses to questions as to whether all have done so for the right reasons, with issues such as the cost of school transport and a lack of mental health support in schools obviously affecting school attendance, this guidance is not the right course of action.
We in the Welsh Conservatives therefore oppose placing undue restrictions on home educators, as parents know better than the state what is best for their children. Parents' choice should be respected, not impeded. Parents and guardians who choose to educate their children in their care at home do so for many different reasons, whether it be due to additional learning needs issues, or believing that they can offer a more rounded and comprehensive education than what is on offer in their local state school.
When it comes to pushing forward with your plans to compile a database for local authorities, you say in your statement that it's to identify children not receiving a 'suitable' education. 'Suitable'—who is to say what is suitable—you, the local authorities, who? The legality is questionable, and it would leave home educators at the whim of many different people perhaps and what they deem as suitable. It is so open to interpretation as to what is suitable, it is concerning. Organised community home groups fear that the actions taken by the Welsh Government, and comments made by Welsh Ministers in recent years, suggest an intention to shift children out of home education and into conventional schools. Home-educating parents and families are sadly being treated as a problem to be solved in your statement, not as people engaging in an equally valid form of education, as is their legal right.
Minister, why are you prepared to place the education of our young people in the hands of people, perhaps with little experience in education or knowledge of home education? It's in the guidance, Minister—it states that the Welsh Government expects that each local authority has a named senior officer with responsibility for home education policy and procedures. However, there is no outlined policy to protect families and children who have had trauma in the school system. Instead, this section of guidance highlights officer by officer basis of the decision on elective home education system. The power clearly lies with the officers who often have little or no experience of home education. And to make it worse, the recent job application forms that went online did not highlight practitioner experience within the education field. Firstly, this poses a clear concern that these people will thus be unqualified for the role that will underpin student education. Secondly, the hiring of these roles can be dated back to almost 12 months ago, despite you stating in July 2022, through the form of a written question, that training for this role had not even been created.
In your statement, you say that you'll monitor and evaluate the effectiveness of new guidance. Minister, this makes you solely judge and jury for this new guidance. Within the new guidance, it shows that a lot of the decisions will be up to local authorities, thus entirely up to their personal judgment. There appears to be, once again, no concrete notion of a 'suitable education', with this phrase being, essentially, a pseudo-statement, offering no legal or workable framework. It is likely that we'll see massive discrepancies across local authorities on how this guidance is being adopted.
Minister, do you not see that you're only going to create more problems down the line? And what gives you the confidence that untrained local authority employees are best placed to judge a child's needs rather than their parents? You say in your statement that this is an opportunity to support home educators, but there are other, non-intrusive ways to do this that don't penalise home-educating families.
Finally, Minister, how is it lawful to insist that local authorities should see a child, when reports by David Wolfe KC deem this to be unlawful on multiple points? As the home-educating community has sought legal advice, have you also sought legal advice—external legal advice—on whether this guidance is lawful, and, if so, will you disclose that in full, so that the Senedd can undertake its role of holding this Welsh Government to account? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes, I'm not entirely clear whether the world view of the Member is that home education is a matter of concern, as she puts it, or a matter of parental choice. I'll try and engage with the questions which she asked, because they were important questions, andthey contain a number of misrepresentations of the guidance, which I think it's important for us to put right.
It is absolutely a choice of parents to home-educate their children if they wish to do so. The guidance is premised on the availability of that choice, and, indeed, the only purpose of the guidance is to make sure that the education received by children whose parents do elect to home educate is a suitable education. And so, it's premised on the availability of that choice. So, I don't accept the Member's characterisation that this guidance removes that choice.
In relation to the question of what is or is not a suitable education, it isn't a matter of conjecture; it isn't a matter of personal preference; it isn't a matter of my diktat; it isn't a vague phrase. As I said in my statement, the guidance does not change the existing legal definition of a 'suitable education'. It is a matter defined in law. It incudes provision in numeracy, literacy, language skills, suitable to the child's age, ability and aptitude, and any additional learning needs the child may have. It isn't simply a matter of academic learning. It also involves socialisation—essential in preparing young people for participation in society. It doesn't place any requirements, as I made clear in my statement, in relation to the curriculum that young people are taught, nor does it stipulate the number of hours that a young person is taught. This is all material that I set out in my statement in relation to the question of what is a suitable education.
How that is determined, the Member challenges, I think, the legality—on what basis is not clear to me—that an authority is able to see a child. It seems to me that it would bear reading the guidance in detail in relation to this. The guidance sets out an expectation that local authorities should meet with children and their families. It is questionable, in my mind, whether it is possible for a local authority to be able to conclude whether or not a child is receiving a suitable education without seeing the child. However, a child and its parents are not obliged to meet with the local authority. I think it is sensible to do so, because that is a very good way—I would suggest the best way—of making clear their view that their child is receiving a suitable education. There is a very well-established process by which local education authority officers can request evidence of a suitable education, and a clear process for when that evidence is not provided. This is not a matter of discretion; it is set out very clearly.
The Member made some points, I think, in relation to the training and capacity of local authority officers, which I think it's extremely important to clarify, because it contained some very concerning assumptions. So, it is for local authorities to appoint officers that have the right skills and experiences, and to provide them with the ongoing professional development to enable them to carry out that role effectively. We have provided local authority officers with a package of training, prior to the publication of the guidance, which includes training on differing educational philosophies, learning styles, and approaches to home education. And we will continue to work very closely with local authority officers to support the implementation of the guidance and promote consistency of approach. This is a matter where, as she says, campaign organisations have taken legal advice. Obviously, Ministers have also taken legal advice in relation to this. She will also know that it's not the practice of any Government to publish that advice, because, as she says herself, the task of the Senedd is to hold Ministers to account, not their lawyers.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Minister, for this afternoon's statement. Certainly, from a Plaid Cymru perspective, it's children's rights that are at the heart of everything, and certainly, in terms of safeguarding children too, it's extremely important that we emphasise that. Clearly, parents do have a right, and many use that right, but the rights of children must be at the heart of all Welsh Government policy, and I would support that approach.
But I do also have some questions, and I do think it's important that we acknowledge how much concern there is in the community that has chosen to home educate at present, according to this discussion, and I think we need to bridge build with that community, because there are grave concerns. There is a perception here that they think that they are being persecuted, that the Government does think that the children are unsafe if this is the choice, and this is the impression that's been given. Also, through the whole host of e-mails and so on that I've received, it's clear that people think that the consultation was inadequate in terms of including them, and I would request, as the pilots and so on take place, that there is that bridge building with the community, because they will have the experience in order to shape and tailor this, and I do think that that has to happen.
And like each and every one of us, we also know that school isn't appropriate for everyone. We must also understand why there's been such great growth recently in people making the choice to home educate, and I'm still not certain that we fully understand that. One of the things that concerns me very greatly personally is the number of parents that have come to me because their children have additional learning needs, or suffer anxiety, and so on, and can't access the necessary services; how many say, 'I had no choice but to start home educating my child'; many, and most of them women, having had to stop working in order to do this, which creates huge financial pressures on households too—this because the education system has been deficient in being able to provide the necessary support to that child or young person. And I do think that we have to look at how we ensure, therefore, in those circumstances—. It will be extremely challenging if a child has been refusing to go to school, if they haven't been receiving the necessary support.
How, therefore, will one-to-one meetings such as this—a single meeting perhaps—how will that work for that child or young person? And I think that's where I'd seek more clarity in terms of this interpretation as to how that assessment will happen. It is a concern in terms of capacity, particularly given that we have seen an increase in the numbers who are home educated. How are we going to ensure that those kinds of meetings are constructive, particularly with children and young people with severe additional learning needs, for example? It's going to be very difficult to assess in a single meeting what appropriate education means, and it will take skills.
We also know of the recruitment problem that exists in local authorities in a number of key posts such as these. And I think one of the things that I want some clarity on is how are we going to proceed if the workforce isn't in place. We know that there is a shortage of teachers in our schools, a shortage of additional learning needs teachers and so on, so how will we ensure that people who have the necessary skills are in these crucial roles, so that they do what you want them to do? It is a concern of mine.
There is also a risk of misinterpreting or there being variations in how the guidance is interpreted. Can you explain—? You've mentioned trialling the database and so on and monitoring and evaluation. Is that going to be an all-Wales approach? Or is it the intention to work with some specific local authorities first to see how that works? And can you provide us with some additional information as to how you intend to work with parents, children and young people in order to ensure that this is a system that works for everyone, and achieves what you want to achieve in terms of securing children's rights to education, and that child safeguarding is a central part of that, but also respects those parents who are doing their very best for their children, who love their children and make this choice either because they can't get the necessary support in school or because this is the choice that is best for that child or young person? It's going to be challenging to strike that balance, but I do think it's collaboration with the community that's going to be crucially important, and I'm fearful now that there is some alienation occurring, and we need to bring the Government and the community together to make progress.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you for the questions. There are important issues raised in what the Member has just asked. In terms of safeguarding, just to be entirely clear: I have never suggested, because there is no evidence to suggest, that a child who's taught at home is at greater risk in terms of safeguarding as compared to a child taught in school. But, like any child, there are circumstances—. There has to be a connection with the system to ensure that the education of the child is adequate. That's an entirely different question to one of safety and safeguarding.
In terms of building bridges, well, there have been wide-ranging discussions leading up to where we are now. Of course, I've heard the criticism that families don't always feel that their opinions have been listened to in full, but there are probably as many—. Every single person who educates at home has a view, of course, and that's as it should be. But what we're trying to do, as a Government—. Starting from 2018, we had a series of national meetings, so that parents who teach at home could discuss with local authorities their needs and so on. The package of support that I outlined in the statement, that is based on collaboration with families who educate at home since 2018 onwards. There's been a channel of communication since then between Welsh Government officials and bodies representing those parents who educate at home. I, myself, met with Education Otherwise, this time last year, to discuss what they had in mind. So, there's been a great deal of consultation that's taken place in that way, as well as the formal consultations on the specific elements of regulations and guidance. So, what we are discussing today is the product of that of that substantial process.
I'm convinced that we're going to succeed in ensuring the interests and well-being of young people by ensuring that those parents who educate at home have a good relationship with their local authorities. There are very good examples of that across Wales, and that's increasingly taking place as a result of the £1.7 million that we provide every year—and we're the only part of the UK to do so, by the way—to support those parents who educate at home. That relationship—a relationship of support—is very important to ensure the best possible outcomes for those young people who are educated at home.
In terms of the increase in the numbers, there’s been a significant increase, and I do agree with the Member that it’s important that we understand why that is. I’ve talked about the work that we’ve done with Data Cymru, and hopefully part of that work will enable us to understand the reasons why people choose to educate their children at home. I think that information will tell us a great many important things.
The Member asked questions about the one-to-one meetings. The purpose of those is to ensure that local authorities understand whether the education provided to a child is suitable and adequate. I agree that one meeting isn’t the best way to do that. The development of a relationship is the best way, but I would question whether it’s possible to do that without a meeting at all. In that meeting, it’s an opportunity for the child to talk about their aspirations, the experience of being educated at home. It might be an opportunity for the parent or the carer to explain their vision and the thinking behind the decision, and what they are teaching—to share examples about work that has been completed, work that has yet to be completed, so that it’s possible to have an open discussion, I would hope, and hopefully a positive discussion, about the kind of education that is being provided. It’s also possible to point the parent or carer towards resources that might support their work of educating at home.
Finally, the Member asked two specific questions about the evaluation and the pilot. In terms of the pilot, we don’t intend to pilot on an all-Wales basis. We will be collaborating with some local authorities to look at how this can work on the ground, and then learn from that. She asked whether the voice of families who educate at home will be heard, if you will, as part of the process of evaluating. The work that I mentioned that will take place over the summer of next year will allow a year of work, so that councils can test the effectiveness of the guidance, and families’ responses to how that happens will be a core part of the information that we want to gather, so that we hear from them whether the guidance works.

Jenny Rathbone AC: The United Kingdom is a signatory to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which includes the right to an education, so I’m surprised at Laura Anne Jones’s rather cavalier approach to this. But I also acknowledge what Laura Anne Jones is saying, that trauma in the school system can lead to parents withdrawing their child because the school simply hasn’t adapted to the particular needs that an individual child may have, to adapt their education processes to ensure that each child is seen as somebody who needs to be educated. All schools need to be trauma informed and capable of doing this.
We need to ensure that there are effective anti-bullying strategies, rights and respect policies for people’s sexualities, their race, their disability, to ensure that we are not chasing children out of school because it’s inconvenient. So, I welcome the guidance that you’ve offered, because the child has a right to an education, even if being educated at home is right for that child. I know lots of children who are very successfully home educated.

Can you ask a question, Jenny, please?

Jenny Rathbone AC: I want to know how you will safeguard those who are withdrawn from school in order to be exploited, because modern slavery is something that's on the rise, and I know people like Joyce are concerned about that, and we can't assume that it will exclude children. So how will we ensure that somebody isn't being withdrawn from school for the wrong reasons, as opposed to the particular needs that they feel can't be met in a busy school?

Jeremy Miles AC: I think I'll start with what Jenny Rathbone opened with, which is that, for some, the decision to home educate is not a positive choice—it's the consequence of an experience that they would say hasn't best served their children. I obviously recognise that that can and does happen.
I just want to be very clear: on no account should a parent be encouraged to remove their child from the school register to avoid an exclusion process or any other regulatory process. That would be entirely inappropriate. A school should never be encouraging a parent to home educate for that reason. On the other hand, we need to make sure that schools are able to then meet the needs of those young people who sometimes are being withdrawn from school.
The reforms in relation to additional learning needs are intended to deliver on parts of that. The new approach that we have to mental health and well-being as part of the whole-school approach is intended to address some of those questions. The new guidance that we are issuing in relation to attendance and behaviour, which is out for consultation as of this week, addresses a number of those approaches that schools ought to be putting in place to support the needs of individual learners.
Of course, where there are continuing needs, if a child has additional learning needs, that child is still entitled to an individual development plan and the local authority is still required to deliver that and to make sure that provision to meet those needs is made available, either by the parents—and that may include providing additional training to enable them to do that—or by providing that themselves, by supporting the family at home. In some cases, that might require specialist placement, but there is a range of ways in which that is an ongoing relationship.
She makes a very important point about safeguarding, and there are a number of examples that we know of where there have been very serious issues, including the loss of life. The proposals that we are putting forward today are specifically there in order to make sure that the education of that child is suitable.The reason that I have been so clear about the need to meet and see the child is because I don't think that it's possible to conclude that effectively without hearing the voice of the child. I will just echo the point that she started with, which I agree fundamentally with: the entire purpose of this set of reforms is to give life and meaning to our commitment as a Government to the rights of the child—to hear that child's voice as part of those arrangements. I completely agree with her about that.

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you, Minister, for your statement. As you know, I take a particular interest in this field as I was home educated myself for a number of years as a child. The important points that I wanted to raise have already been raised here today, around parental choice and what is deemed as suitable home education.
On the parental choice piece, which you responded to Laura Anne Jones on a few moments ago, just to be clear, it's not just about whether parents can choose whether to home educate their children or not. It's important that parental choice includes the type of education that children receive when they are home educated. I would be interested in your response to that.
Of course, the point of home education often is to avoid what some see as that straitjacket of mainstream education. Suitable home education, however you would try to define that, can look very different from one family to the next. One size does not fit all. And I must say, Minister, that there is a risk that the Welsh Government's starting point with home education can be seen as one of suspicion and questioning the motives of parents, rather than trusting them. My expectation of parents is that they choose this route because parents love and care for their children, and they want what is best for their children.
To come to my question, Minister, do you recognise the stance that the Welsh Government is seen to be taking—of suspicion and mistrust? What will you do to reverse this and show that you support parents in the choices that they make?

Jeremy Miles AC: I don't think the point that the Member makes reflects in any way at all the Welsh Government's view. He's entitled to make the point, as Laura Anne Jones made it, but it's absolutely not remotely the Government's view. I don't think that I can be any plainer than that.
We issue the guidance to clarify and support the relationship between local authorities and families who choose to home educate, recognising that there is a parental choice that can be made to do that. It can be made for a range of reasons. He referred to one of them, which is a different approach to education—a view that the Curriculum for Wales is not what some parents will wish their children to be taught.
I'm obviously a very strong advocate for that, and I don't accept that it's a straitjacket. I think, in many ways, it provides much greater flexibility and enables schools to tailor the education experience much more closely to the needs, experiences and community of the young person than the old national curriculum. I think that's a very big step forward. I think there's real potential, actually, in making sure that the relationship between the school and parents who home educate can reflect the fact that the curriculum provides much more flexibility.
I spoke in my response to earlier questions about the training that we provide to ensure that local education authorities recognise and understand different approaches to educational philosophies. I think that's at odds with the Member's assumption that we have a rigid view. We recognise that parents who choose to home educate do that for a range of different reasons in relation to their view of education.
Most fundamentally, I have set out here a package of support that we make available as a Government through local authorities to home-educating parents. I don't think there's anything like that in any other part of UK, certainly not matched by the funding that we provide to it. Because I recognise, as I mentioned in my response to Heledd Fychan's question, that the best way of ensuring the well-being and the educational attainment of those young people is by having a good relationship with the local authority and the very wide range of other educational and related resources that we make available. I have listed a number of ways, in addition to the statutory rights that children have in this context, that we want to continue to support parents who are home educating—so, access to educational resources, access to Welsh language support, access to additional book loans, access to Cadw sites. Those are all ways of enriching that experience and providing additional support to those families.

Jayne Bryant AC: Diolch, Minister. I'd like to welcome today's statement. I know this has been anticipated by many for a long time, and it's good to have the opportunity for this to be discussed in the Senedd today. This is very much a children's rights issue. The Children, Young People and Education Committee has received a number of pieces of correspondence from across Wales about the new guidance, and I know that the committee will be considering these at its next meeting next week. The committee will also be considering that in the context of what has been said during the statement today. I'm sure you're aware that there has been some anxiety from some home educators on this issue, so the extra detail and statutory guidance are most welcome. Can the Minister outline the discussions he has had with home educators throughout this process, including further information about the core offer of support from the Welsh Government? Can he assure me and others that dialogue will continue and that, above all, children and young people and their rights are the forefront of these changes?

Jeremy Miles AC: I'm very happy to give that assurance. Children's rights are absolutely the entire motivating purpose of the guidance that we've put forward today. Echoing the point that Jenny Rathbone made, it's a matter of making sure that children's rights are respected and that their right to a suitable education, above all else, is supported and assured.
The Member asks about engagement. In 2018, we commissioned a national meeting for elective home educators and local authority representatives, and that then enabled discussions right across Wales about the experiences of home-educating families and their views on the type of support they'd find helpful. That was built on in the formal consultations, both in 2019 and 2020, on the statutory guidance, on the home education handbook and on the database regulations. Obviously, all those three consultations have been considered, collated and reflected. We've published a summary, we've published a response to what we have heard.
There was then a pause, naturally, during the pandemic. Work then restarted in September 2021. There's been an ongoing dialogue since then between officials and various elective home-educating family representative groups. That's been virtual, some have been in correspondence. I know that officials met with Families First in Education in May of last year, I think. I myself met with Education Otherwise at around that time. There has been an ongoing dialogue. My intention is to continue that, and, as I said in my response to Heledd Fychan, to include the experience of elective home-educating families in our evaluation of how the guidance works.
The package of support, which, as I mentioned in my answer to Sam Rowlands, I think is unrivalled in any other part of the UK, is very much the product of what home-educating families were telling us from 2018 onwards they would find helpful in carrying out their responsibility and indeed discharging their duty to make sure that their young people receive a suitable education.

Finally, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Minister, the representations that I’ve received from constituents—some of whom are in the public gallery here today—are from home educators who already have a positive relationship with their local authority under the existing non-statutory guidelines and have considered the role of the local authority to be primarily supportive. However, the new guidance in its current form could jeopardise that relationship and could do a disservice to so many home educators who work hard to ensure their children have everything they need to succeed in life. Now, the Welsh Government should be working with these home educators. Instead, local authorities will determine what is a suitable education, can insist on mandatory meetings with the child and parent, and failure to comply could ultimately lead to the child being removed from the family home under a care order.
So, Minister, can you tell us why there is no appeals process within this new guidance, nor is there any requirement for a local authority to ensure that staff are trained, or understand bias, discrimination or protected identities, at the very least? And secondly, can you confirm whether parents and children will legally have to meet with a local authority, and what consequences will there be for home educators who do not attend mandatory meetings with their local authority?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, the guidance is very clear on that last point; I was also clear in my statement about that. It’s not mandatory. He referred to it as being mandatory. So, a Gillick-competent child or a parent on behalf of a child—[Interruption.] The guidance is also clear about that, so there’s no question about that. The Member asks about the consequence of that. I’ve been very clear: I think it’s questionable whether a local authority can form a rounded view about whether a child is having a suitable education without meeting with that child and the child’s family. But the authority’s entitled, in satisfying itself whether that child is receiving a suitable education, to ask for evidence of that, and, in the absence of provision of that evidence—. And there is no real basis on which that should not happen. This is about, as he says in his opening question, in his opening remarks, a relationship, isn’t it? And as he said, and I acknowledged earlier, there are very good examples right across Wales of well-functioning relationships that support parents who make this choice. This guidance is designed to make sure that happens everywhere, to support both families and authorities in discharging that.
There is a requirement for local authorities to make sure that their staff doing this work have the right skills and experience, and we've provided training in particular around the different approaches that families may take to home educating in order to make sure that the experience that many families have of a good relationship is the experience that all families have.

I thank the Minister.

5. Statement by the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd: Government response to the second phase of the sustainable farming scheme co-design

Item 5 has been postponed until 11 July 2023.

6. Statement by the Minister for Economy: Economic Development in Mid Wales

So, item 6 is a statement by the Minister for Economy on economic development in mid Wales, and I call on the Minister, Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I’m pleased to have this opportunity to update Members on the progress of economic development across mid Wales, the mid Wales growth deal region. Our mission across Wales is to create better jobs in stronger businesses and to narrow the skills divide for a stronger economic future that is built by all of us. In order to secure that future, the decisions we take alongside our partners in mid Wales are focused on creating an environment where more young people feel confident about planning future ambitions closer to home. This is an objective that is shared across all signatories to the mid Wales growth deal and I hope it is also a goal shared and supported across the Chamber.
The vision document for Growing Mid Wales points to the urgency of this task, given the serious demographic challenges faced within the region. Dirprwy Lywydd, this context is important in understanding the priorities that we are pursuing in the region, and is relevant to a balanced approach that we are taking to support sustainable economic development that works with the strengths of the region to protect and promote thriving communities.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Vaughan Gething AC: Mid Wales is a region of opportunity and potential. Recognised as being a great place to live and to work, offering an exceptional quality of life, it has a natural environment that supports agriculture and land-based industries, as well as an outstanding tourism offer. Mid Wales is also home to some world-class academic and research capability and industrial clusters, including advanced and high-value manufacturing.
The mid Wales regional economic framework, published in December 2021, was co-produced with partners and is based on evidence and agreement. It is aligned with our framework for regional investment and the wider economic mission. It sets out a shared vision around a common set of economic priorities for mid Wales and a commitment to work with our key stakeholders within an approach that complements the strategic planning led by local authorities and the wider Growing Mid Wales partnership.
The mid Wales growth deal is making real progress now since the signing of the final deal agreement by both Government here, the Welsh Government, the UK Government, and regional delivery partners in January 2022. One hundred and ten million pounds has been committed by both Governments to enable the region to deliver a range of programmes and projects, to help lever investment of up to £400 million, and with the aim of creating between 1,100 and 1,400 new jobs in mid Wales by 2032.
In line with the recently announced refresh to the manufacturing action plan, we have assisted automotive parts manufacturer Marrill Group in Llanfyllinwith investment to safeguard more than 100 well-paid jobs and to secure the company's presence. Our support is also enabling LEB Construction in Aberystwyth to develop a new headquarters building and IT infrastructure. Just last week, we announced support to Brecon-based Airflo Fishing Products Ltd, a global innovator in fly-fishing technology, securing 44 jobs and creating a further 21, and paving the way for quadrupling exports to North America. I have seen at first-hand how the young and innovative mountain bike business Atherton Bikes continues to rapidly grow, with customers in 16 countries worldwide, from their Machynlleth base with support from this Government. Over £7.8 million has been invested in the food sector in mid Wales, helping regional producers such as Hilltop Honey in Newtown and Radnor Hills in Knighton to partner with leading UK retailers.
Our investment in transport infrastructure will also improve connectivity and resilience. The new A487 Dyfi bridge scheme will reduce flooding risk and provide increased safe walking and cycling opportunities. The new Bow Street station on the Cambrian line has had a positive impact on the local community and the wider region, making it more easy than ever for people to connect with employment, education, health and other vital services.
Llywydd, we continue to work alongside numerous inward investors and indigenous businesses to find commercial property solutions in mid Wales. We'll shortly complete the development of net-zero carbon industrial units at Treowain Enterprise Park in Machynlleth, and we've directly constructed an R&D testing facility at Offa's Dyke for the Welshpool-based manufacturer Yasa Limited.
The Welsh Government has a proud record of working as a trusted partner with indigenous Welsh brands that share our ambitions for mid Wales. I'm delighted that Green Man continues to play a pivotal role in promoting the region, with a hugely successful, quality and respected brand that is a true asset to Wales's cultural offer. I recently updated members on our engagement with the business regarding their proposals for business growth and diversification at the Gilestone Farm site; I will of course provide a further update in due course.
I note that the company has shared publicly information about how its proposals align with the mid Wales growth partnership. The partnership's vision document sets strategic growth priorities that include tourism, agriculture, food and drink, research and innovation, support for enterprise and skills and employment, which are clearly aligned to the proposed areas of activity set out by the business to date. The priorities in the partnership's vision document are focused on building on local economic strengths in a sustainable way to secure more jobs across a broader mix of sectors to help young people plan for their future.
Llywydd, mid Wales remains open for business. I want to assure investors looking at opportunities that work with our shared vision that the Welsh Government is a partner with ambition for a vibrant regional economy that supports thriving rural communities. Our support for regional skills partnerships will ensure that they're in a stronger position to influence investment in skills and match provision to demand in a way that is responsive to local opportunities to expand fair work. The new mid Wales regional skills partnership held its spring event recently, engaging with businesses to identify their priorities for regional investment to support jobs and growth.
Former EU funds have, of course, made an important contribution to the mid Wales economy. The current structural funds programmes, which are being run down, have already created over 2,750 jobs and 655 new businesses in the area, whilst over 1,900 businesses have been assisted with funding or business support, almost 1,300 people have been helped into employment, and almost 6,950 qualifications have been achieved.
EU funding has helped enable some of our key regional assets to maximise their potential. Aberystwyth University has benefited from over £49 million of EU funding and the current structural funds to develop new, groundbreaking facilities like VetHub1 and AberInnovation. It is with a mixture of both sadness and anger, however, that the job losses and project closures that we warned of, and the funding design flaws that prevent support for long-term and high-impact strategic projects and previously eligible areas such as research and innovation are now playing out for real across our economy.
In February of this year, I launched a new innovation strategy to build on our collaborative working with important regional institutions, including the Institute of Biological, Environmental and Rural Sciences facility near Aberystwyth, to provide world-class facilities to support growth sectors such bioscience, agri-tech and food and drink. Further Welsh Government support to set out a strategic development plan and a five to 10-year road map for a second innovation campus at AberInnovation will help to address the need for additional capacity and mitigate the risk of losing potential investment.
We're also taking forward, of course, our co-operation agreement commitment to take forward phase 2 of the Arfor programme, with £11 million available to support communities that are strongholds of the Welsh language, including Ceredigion, to flourish through economic intervention that will also contribute to increasing opportunities to see and use the Welsh language on a daily basis, with an emphasis on younger people.
Llywydd, the Welsh Government will continue to invest in mid Wales as part of our ambitions for a fairer, greener economy across all parts of Wales.

I feel almost as if I should be responding to some of that.

Vaughan Gething AC: Maybe, as the constituency Member, on another occasion.

But I'd better do what is constitutionally required of me and call Paul Davies.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Llywydd, and can I thank the Minister for his statement today? And Ilook forward to his next statement, which, hopefully, will be on economic development in west Wales.
Now, as we reach the mid-way point of this Senedd term, it's crucial that the Welsh Government's economic policies for each region are thoroughly assessed so that we can better understand the impact they're having on communities and learn lessons on what is working well and perhaps what needs to change. Now, today's statement refers to the regional economic framework for mid Wales, and the Minister knows that I support the move to a regionally focused economic policy, which should provide a greater buy-in from local stakeholders. The framework rightly identifies that there are significant sectoral strengths in mid Wales in the fields of agriculture, food and tourism, as well as others, and so it's vital that there is a genuine opportunity for the private sector, from farmers themselves to larger businesses, to have a say on that framework, so that officers can learn from those who are actually working and providing jobs and opportunities in the area. And so I'd be grateful if we could hear more from the Minister on how he's ensuring these voices are being heard.
The vision for Growing Mid Wales strategic plan and the growth deal road map makes it clear that 95 per cent of businesses in mid Wales are micro businesses, while just 0.8 per cent of businesses are medium or larger size. And so it's fair to say that small businesses really are the backbone of the mid Wales economy. That same plan recognises that, in terms of policy, there are two challenges for businesses—business rates and the need for more streamlined planning processes. Now, I accept that some action has been taken in the form of the business rates retail, leisure and hospitality rates relief scheme, and so perhaps the Minister could address the second challenge and tell us what steps are being taken to ensure that planning processes are more closely aligned to the economic growth priorities of the region.
Today's statement rightly promotes the role of the regional skills partnerships, which work to identify the right skills for the future workforce and ensure that there are sufficient skills opportunities in the region. So, I'd be grateful if the Minister could tell us more about how the Welsh Government is increasing its skills provision in all parts of mid Wales, so that people living in all parts of the region are able to access learning opportunities.
One of the key challenges facing the area is retaining more of its young people, and I believe the Welsh Government needs to do more to promote opportunities from its young person's guarantee to youth groups and organisations in rural areas. There needs to be greater engagement with colleges, young farmers clubs, and even local parishes, to really sell opportunities to young people in their communities in order to retain young people and prevent the labour market from becoming static or weakening. Therefore, perhaps the Minister could tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to work with these organisations in mid Wales to better promote opportunities for young people.
Today's statement refers to mid Wales's infrastructure challenges, and it's vital that the Welsh Government works with the UK Government and local authorities to address these challenges, to invest in the region, to connect communities and businesses to the global marketplace. The Minister refers to the A487 Dyfi bridge scheme and the new Bow Street station on the Cambrian line, which is progress, but there really needs to be a specific mid Wales infrastructure strategy that is underpinned by investment and resources to address some of these challenges. So, can the Minister update us on any discussions that are taking place with local authorities, and indeed the UK Government, on building and improving infrastructure in mid Wales?
Today's statement, of course, refers to the mid Wales growth deal, which plays a key role in driving economic recovery and growth in the mid Wales economy, and is a great example of the benefits of collaborative working. Three outcomes were envisaged for the mid Wales economy when the growth deal was signed: firstly, to create between 1,100 and 1,400 new jobs by 2032; secondly, to support a net additional gross value added uplift of between £570 million and £700 million; and thirdly, to deliver a total investment of up to £400 million in the mid Wales economy by 2032. Perhaps the Minister can confirm whether he believes that those outcomes are still achievable, and how the Welsh Government is monitoring the progress of growth deal investment.
The delivery framework of the growth deal is now in place to, of course, allow programme and project business cases to come forward, and I'd be grateful if you could tell us more about the level of interest that's been received in terms of business cases and whether there's more that can be done to ensure that opportunities aren't missed.
Finally, today's statement refers to the innovation strategy, and it's crucial that there is investment in R&D opportunities across the region. The Minister refers to the IBERS facility near Aberystwyth and a second innovation campus at AberInnovation, but perhaps he could update us on the other opportunities and investment that is being made in other parts of the region.
Llywydd, in closing, can I thank the Minister for his statement to date? It's clear that there has been some significant progress in developing the conditions for growth in mid Wales, but there are still opportunities for more too. So, I look forward to hearing more from the Minister about the progress of the growth deal as it continues to develop, as well as understanding more of the impact that the Welsh Government's own economic policies are having on the region too. Diolch yn fawr.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the series of questions. I'll try and deal with as many of them as I can do. I should acknowledge upfront that I was a student in Aberystwyth, so I know parts of Aberystwyth better than, perhaps, other regions of Wales and the parts that I can still remember.
You asked a number of questions about the growth deal, and the oversight and achievements. In particular, you asked a question that, I think, came near the end of your series of questions, that I think linked back to the first ones about the engagement with growth deal partners, what that looks like, whether the outcomes are still achievable, and indeed how that works through between ourselves and growth deal partners. Of course, it works on a number of different levels. So, the £110 million investment into the growth deal is £55 million from us, the Welsh Government, and £55 million from the UK Government. The lead Minister for oversight from the growth deal, the engagement with it, is the junior Minister in the Wales Office, Dr James Davies, and we do have both political engagement and indeed between officials. So, UK Government officials, my officials in the Welsh Government, and indeed working directly with the growth deal partners and the leadership provided by the two local authorities trying to work together. That also goes into some of the points you made about whether the planning process can or can't be streamlined, and that really is about making sure they have up-to-date LDPs and a process that is fit for purpose.

Vaughan Gething AC: The challenge, though, is that in the regular meetings that we have with the different growth deals—and I'm sure that, at some point, I will update the Chamber on the Swansea bay growth deal that covers west Wales, where the Member has a constituency interest—we are going through and looking at the progress that is being made. The mid Wales growth deal started later than other growth deals, so it's later in delivery than those others. There's no reason at this point, though, to think that they won't achieve their outcomes in terms of the impact on the economy and levering in additional private investment. I think it's one of the areas of strength where, actually, the two Governments have managed to work together—the Welsh and the UK Government—on areas where there is a sharing of resource going in and a sharing of powers, and it's one of the better examples between our two Governments. We regularly talk about things that don't always work well; this is an example where there is constructive engagement.
I'm pleased you recognised the points about rates relief and in terms of what we're doing for a variety of sectors that are particularly important within this part of Wales, but more generally as well.
On skills provision, we should take it as read that we disagree about the reality of some of the changes in skills funding. We've been clear that we think there's a big loss and the shared prosperity fund simply doesn't replace everything that's come from it. So, we're starting from a different position. What I would have wanted us to be able to do, with the new settlement, is to work with different regions with a proper framework for investment, about how we then make use of all of our resourcing to improve skills provision. What we're actually having to do is, where there are the more difficult budget choices we face, some of which are not entirely within the UK Government's gift—the impact of events in the wider world, I accept, has an impact—but, actually, the reality of why our budget is significantly reduced now compared to before is as a result of those choices around replacement EU funds not being made in full. It's also about the reality—and I see the finance Minister on the screen—that, compared to the last spending review and now, our overall budget is worth significantly less. So, that means that the value on our budgets cannot go as far.
What we do continue to do, though, is we want to work with each of the regions to understand what they're doing with the shared prosperity fund, how it aligns with the growth deal, and if there are gaps and duplication, and what we then do from a Welsh Government funded position as well. That is why I place emphasis on working with the regional skills partnerships, to understand the areas of investment in skills where we can make a difference. And the plan will be slightly different in different parts of Wales, building on their unique strengths and opportunities in the region for both further as well as higher education, as well as investing within the workforce.
Atherton Bikes are a good example of this now. I'm sure the Member knows that the Atherton family are a multimedalled world champion family, and they chose to settle in mid Wales, and they're running a successful business in terms of the bike park as well as manufacturing high-value bikes themselves. And they're investing in their staff—a relatively small team, but their products are highly sought after. So, that investment will be very different from what we might do alongside IBERS, from what we might do alongside investing in the skills in the tourism sector as well. So, we'll need to have a bespoke programme, and that's why a skills partnership and understanding the variety of what we need to do is so important.
You asked about young people: we regularly talk about Big Ideas Wales and investing in helping young people to start their own businesses. Part of the point about having a plan for the future is actually so there's a sense of optimism that you can actually get on without getting out, and that's a really big challenge for our demographic issues within mid Wales, but across the whole of the country, about making sure our young people don't feel they either need to leave mid Wales to either go to England or, indeed, to go to other larger population centres in the country. So, that's why having a forward-looking plan that points out where growth opportunity is is so important.
And finally, I'll just deal with your point on infrastructure. The Member made a suggestion that we need a mid Wales infrastructure plan and then asked me about how I'd do that. We don't actually essentially have a mid Wales infrastructure plan. We have an infrastructure investment plan across Wales that we set out and we regularly update Members on. When it comes, though, to the things that we're able to do—and the Dyfi bridge improvement is one of those I mentioned in the statement—it does come down to both having a plan, but it also comes down to having the budget to deliver that. And we regularly discuss the issues around not having Barnett consequentials for rail investment in other parts of the UK, particularly for England-only projects, and it does come back to the points about the reality of what our budget means. I want us to be able to carry on working in a way that is true to having a regional investment framework and partnership with regions. That's what we're doing, but we could of course do much more if we had the appropriate resources to match.

Luke Fletcher AS: I'll start by welcoming the investment in Arfor 2 and its progression. 'Community resilience', I think, is an important phrase here, and Arfor 2 will play an important role in promoting that whilst also ensuring the longevity of the Welsh language. I think we really have an opportunity here to develop the economies of these communities in a way that breathes new life into them.
It's also welcome to hear of the jobs created thus far. The Minister referred to the target of over 1,000 jobs by 2032. I'd be interested to know how close or how far the Minister is away from hitting that objective.I'd also like to pick up on something the Minister said about the loss of EU funding, and I quote, with apologies in advance to the Minister:
'It is with...sadness and anger, however, that the job losses and project closures that we warned of, and the funding design flaws that prevent support for long-term and high-impact strategic projects and previously eligible areas such as research and innovation are now playing out...across our economy.'
Now, I have a lot of sympathy with this statement, but I am keen to understand what precise assessment has been made as to the number of projects that are being wound down and jobs that are at risk as EU funding comes to an end in mid Wales, and how is the Welsh Government working with stakeholders to mitigate or minimise this. It's one thing to point out, of course, that there have been or will be job losses, but another to ensure that something is being done about it.
I'd also like to consider the broader effectiveness of the economy effectiveness fund as a tool for facilitating SME growth, for a moment, especially in light of the fact that the overwhelming majority of Wales-based SMEs are classified as micro, and we've heard of the importance of SMEs in growth in mid Wales. So, would the Minister outline the total amount that has been provided to Welsh businesses since the fund's inception, and how many additional jobs have been created in total?
Many of us in this Chamber would have seen the recently published data relating to child poverty, which clearly shows that child poverty isn't just an issue in post-industrial or urban areas. Indeed, with 30 per cent of its children living in poverty, Ceredigion had the second highest rate of child poverty in Wales, with Blaenau Gwent topping the chart at 30.3 per cent. What is Welsh Government proposing to do to link economic development in mid Wales to poverty reduction in light of these damning Bevan Foundation statistics? Poverty is the biggest barrier to successful economic development, and let's remember that when you strip everything back, the essence of any economy is its people.
And finally, to build on the transport questions from the Tory spokesperson, focusing instead this time on buses, the Minister also mentioned the need for investment in infrastructure, and public transport is key to this. What assessment has the Government made of implications of reduced funding for bus services for economic development in mid Wales? The reality is that unless transport infrastructure is improved, we'll see multiple barriers to developing the mid Wales economy, whether that's social mobility, encouraging people to make greener transport choices, or encouraging people to set up their own businesses. If people are at a standstill, then so too is the economy.
So, to conclude, Llywydd, there's much to welcome in the statement, but I do fear that there is a risk that all the right things are being said, that the challenges are being recognised, but what's important for us now to see is significant progress.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the comments and questions. Thank you for the welcome for Arfor 2 and the work that we're doing, moving into delivery phase now. I'm looking forward to meeting with the Arfor board this week, and, indeed, designated members from the co-operation agreement, to look at progress that is being made. And I think that's an important part because, of course, it covers part of the mid Wales growth area, but to understand how it's going through not just having a budget, but through a delivery phase as well. And it goes to a couple of the points you made about how far along are we on the road to actually delivering on the jobs target.
Because the growth deal was only signed off much later, it's not in a position where I could honestly tell you now, from the meetings that I've had with both UK Government and the partners, about exactly how many jobs have been assessed. That's part of the ongoing work we do in the regular meetings we have throughout the year on progress with the deal, on a variety of different areas. Of course, if you look at the vision document that's provided, you wouldn't necessarily expect to see a ticker count going up right now on the additional jobs created;it's investing in a range of different areas to develop sustainable employment outcomes. But I'll be more than happy to provide updates to Members generally and, indeed, I'm sure, for the committee on work being done in each of the growth deal areas, and how we assess the relative performance and progress of each one of them. I'd like to do that to be helpful.
When it comes to the challenges and where we see some of the harm being done from the loss of EU funds, there are two obvious areas where you can see a withdrawal and a loss of jobs. The third sector and higher education—obviously, there's Aberystwyth University in the mid Wales area—have set out in really stark detail the number of projects that are closing down and the direct redundancies that have resulted. You see a national body like Chwarae Teg that have released lots of their staff because of the way that EU funding has been withdrawn, and the way that replacement funding has been designed. It's both the lack of genuine like-for-like replacement in terms of the budget as well as the design that means that there is a problem. I'm sure that we'll have more opportunities to talk about, for example, the way that Multiply has been imposed with a budget and a framework that means it's going to be almost impossible to do the right thing in improving basic skills. That goes into some of the points you made later on about how you help people into work in the first place, and then into really good work, as well.
When it comes to what's being done, there is a limit to what we can do with the harm that is being caused. You'll have seen the budget scrutiny about how you can't fill in every gap, and you can't pretend that you can, either. But it does then mean that what we then do in replacement is even more important. It's why the innovation strategy is really important, to both maximise the funds that we do have as well as to make better use of and access to UK funding sources. That's why us actually having a joint agreement that I signed with Innovate UK in April is actually really important to make that real.
In terms of the future, I certainly hope that we see the delivery of the UK Labour pledge to make sure that the powers and decision making over replacement EU funds return to this place, so that not just Ministers can make those choices, but we can be much more directly accountable to Members in this Chamber and in our committees. That really would make a difference to the way we can use those funds to work with people rather than designing something that doesn't actually make sense with the work we've all signed up to do.
On your point about economic development and the links to poverty, you heard the First Minister run through in questions earlier today the fact that we're about to launch in the coming weeks a child poverty consultation. The recognition of the direct link, including the time when I had ministerial responsibilities for a range of our intervention programmes, is that you intervene earlier, you get a better return, but you have to wait longer to see the outcomes. If you don't intervene earlier, the problem gets larger; but in intervening earlier in a child's life, you also almost always help parents and their ability and their confidence to access the labour market. But being in work has not been, for a long time, a guarantee that you won't live a life in poverty. So it's not just about finding people work—it's about finding people good work. That's why all the work we do on basic skills and all the programmes we have, whether it's Communities for Work Plus or the other programmes we run to help people into work, actually makes a difference. You can then continue to invest in their skills. And there's a challenge here for us in the Government, but actually for businesses and services themselves, to carry on investing in their own workforce, to make sure that businesses are more productive and they are providing a better deal for their workforce. That includes small businesses and microbusinesses, too.
And finally, on your point around buses, we recognise there's a real challenge around the budgetary position for the bus network. There isn't a single Member in my group, never mind in the Government, who looks forward with anticipation to the budgetary challenges that we have got, but we'll have to find a way to deal with the budget that we have got rather than wishing we simply had more money but not being able to deliver it in practice. In addition, though, to the transport infrastructure, part of what we're going to be able to do with the changed nature of work, which is an opportunity in Wales, is that people don't all need to move to be able to work and to work in high-value employment. So, thinking about both shared workspaces, but also the ability to have good broadband infrastructure, will be really important. It's why I place high importance on the work I continue to do with the UK Government on the work that they have responsibility for in improving our broadband infrastructure and the holes that we will, no doubt, be left to fill in.

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you for the update, Minister. There's a lot there to welcome. The mid Wales growth deal is making real progress, as you say, thanks to this Government and the delivery partners. Mid Wales businesses are capitalising on that support. You mentioned several of them, including Airflo Fishing Products, the latest company to benefit from Welsh Government investment, and that's really positive. You mentioned also that the challenge is to retain skills and to attract additional skills, and the demographic makes that perfectly clear.
Some of those skills are significantly transferrable. The Dyfi bridge is an excellent example of engineering excellence, and young people will be invested with much-needed advanced skills in structural engineering. The same young people would have been invested in those skills with the Newtown bypass and the Bow Street railway station.
Moving forward and using those skills, of course, is essential for those communities, and that's a fair geographic spread with those projects that I have just mentioned. So, moving forward—and you have identified the need for the skills and their retention—will you be working very closely with the skills providers in those areas, so that we not only have those people investing in the skills, but those people who can teach those skills as well?

Vaughan Gething AC: It's a good point made by Joyce Watson. I should have anticipated a question on construction and structural engineering from Joyce Watson—her long-standing interest. It's an area of the economy that has actually been relatively resilient in recent years.
Part of our challenge is getting enough people interested, to want to stay in that area, but also for the sector itself to expand its reach, to make sure that more men and women actually undertake careers in the sector. I know that that's a cause that Joyce Watson has regularly championed. So, yes, we want to invest in skills. Yes, we want to invest in the future. And yes, we do think that there is more work to be done with the sector to properly promote itself, and to work with skills providers to make sure that the skills that are being provided and are made available are not just accessible to a wider group of people, but that actually they are teaching skills that people need for today and tomorrow.
There's a risk that you can provide skills that were relevant yesterday, as opposed to today and the future, and that's very much the journey that we're on. Thus far, I think that there is a really positive engagement with the skills partnership and, indeed, the providers within the area, and, indeed, some of the travel that may have been necessary to acquire those skills but then to run a successful business with successful workers in the mid Wales area.

James Evans MS: I'd like to thank the Minister for his statement today. As a previous Cabinet member for the economy in Powys County Council, this is something that I take a very keen interest in. When I was going around talking to many businesses when I was in the Cabinet in Powys, they wanted to see bigger businesses coming into the area to increase the GVA of Powys, because Powys has the lowest GVA of any area in Wales, and is one of the lowest areas in the whole of the United Kingdom. So, I would like to know what the Welsh Government is doing to get major businesses into mid Wales and into Powys, to make sure that we can provide jobs and opportunities for younger people to stay in that area. If we can provide it, I'm sure that those younger people will stay, learn and live in Powys into the future, which will help drive up the GVA of the area.

Vaughan Gething AC: I think that it depends on what your definition of a major business is, and then the ability to have the right sort of infrastructure for people to actually invest and deliver in that business. You mentioned earlier, in First Minister's questions, that you had had some contact with someone who had got in touch with you. I'm looking forward to having the information provided on what that will look like, because I am interested in making sure that there are real opportunities for people to live and work in local communities, for those communities to be successful. It's part of what you need to see in every part of the country, and in mid Wales as much as anywhere else.
In the statement, of course, we have mentioned a number of businesses that we have helped and supported so that they've either stayed in Wales, come to mid Wales or, indeed, have expanded their operations from being there already. So, I am more than happy to engage with the Member when he has suggestions of particular projects that he thinks are available in the area, or, indeed, what we can do to make sure that the infrastructure, in all of its senses—from the skills points that Joyce Watson makes, to the points about wider infrastructure—is appropriate in mid Wales, for businesses that can and will want to succeed there. I think that that is well set out for those priority areas in the mid Wales vision document.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you, Minister, for the statement. There is very much to welcome in it. I just wanted to touch on two things, if I may: digital connectivity and grid capacity. So, first, digital connectivity. We know that in September 2019, only 18 per cent of homes and businesses had access to an ultrafast fixed broadband speed, compared to the UK average of 52 per cent, and fewer than half of all properties had indoor coverage from all four mobile phone operators. So, I'm just interested to hear what work has been done on digital connectivity, given how important it is for businesses.
And secondly, in relation to grid capacity, you referred to a number of investments in properties and industrial units in Machynlleth and Llanfyllin, for example, but one of the issues that we are hearing a lot about is the challenge of getting that grid capacity to businesses in very remote rural areas. So, I’m just interested in what steps you will be taking to actually enhance the grid capacity for mid Wales. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the two points. On digital connectivity, I alluded to it in answer to an earlier question; it’s a real opportunity for people to work and not to have to commute large distances or to move out, but it also means you need to have reliable connectivity in the first place, which is part of our challenge. It isn’t a devolved function, but it is part of what I have been looking to do since becoming the lead digital Minister in the Government in our interactions with UK Government and the programme they had for investing in expanded access. The challenge, though, is that the previous pledge of everyone having good access then got levelled down, not levelled up, to 85 per cent of people having access. The problem is that millions more in rural parts of the UK—including mid Wales—are likely to be in that 15 per cent, and it is likely to be the case that the UK Government will lead and deliver on a project that will improve connectivity for lots of people, but will leave current notspots even further behind.
I think the challenge there is wanting the UK Government to actually meet its pledges, but to think about what we then can do. It always comes down to this difficult equation that this is an area that is reserved. In the past, there have been voices saying the Welsh Government should not do anything in reserved areas, or we need to intervene with devolved budgets, because otherwise there won’t be an acceptable service. You may have noticed that we’ve put out a potential procurement notice—it’s called a PIN in procurement terms—to look at some of the work that we are doing to look to try to improve digital connectivity in different parts of Wales. We’re more than happy to update the Member as we run through that on what it’s going to look like, but it’s part of the challenge of having a large area with more difficult topography to provide the signals to. But we’re keen to make sure that we don’t simply abandon parts of the country and say, ‘That’s just how it is’, because actually this is more and more an essential, not a nice-to-have.
On your point around grid capacity, I’m glad the climate change Minister is in the room, because it’s a regular source of frustration for us both about the way that grid capacity and connectivity does and doesn’t work, and actually, for number of our businesses, they’re only here because we have managed to find a way to invest in improving their connectivity to the grid. It really does require a significant rethink, though, I think, on a UK level, about how the national grid works, about how we look to take it as a properly strategic asset and how we look to invest in it; not just along our coastline, but actually in other parts of Wales as well. Because you’re right: for lots of business, they will be power-hungry to be successful. If we’re able to generate more renewable energy, we need to get it to where it’s needed, and that requires a much more significant and robust approach to developing and implementing the national grid, including its ownership and direction from elected representatives.

Russell George, finally.

Russell George AC: Thank you, Llywydd. I have been quite frustrated, actually, with the growth deal. It’s been very slow. I don’t put that at your door, Minister—there are number of partners involved—but I’m pleased that we have had some progress now. When do you envisage that we will be in a position, Minister, to know that these are the final projects and programmes that will be delivered by the growth deal? Because that’s what people ask me: what are the projects? Let’s see the outcome.
You mentioned the Dyfi bridge, Minister—for me, the absolutely crucial and welcome project for the growth of that part of mid Wales. At the beginning of the year, the envisaged completion date was summer 2023; the sun tells us we’re now in the summer. So, is there a revised completion date for the Dyfi bridge? I certainly hope it will be later in the summer.
Minister, you mentioned that mid Wales is open for business; the most significant issue for me that prevents business growth in mid Wales is the lack of commercial business premises available or land to buy, or land available for commercial builds. Many businesses want to movefrom 10,000 sq ft to 30,000 sq ft premises, or 30,000 sq ft to 50,000 sq foot. This has been a constant issue over my 12 years as a Member of this Senedd. Even through the pandemic, even through the economically challenging times, businesses want to grow and are prevented from doing so due to the lack of commercial properties available. An SQW report on commercial property some years ago suggested that there is a need for the Welsh Government to plan to facilitate between 300,000 sq ft and 790,000 sq ft each year on a rolling programme. At the time, the Minister, Ken Skates, agreed with that analysis. So, any update you could provide on that would be useful. And certainly, your two predecessors, Ken Skates and Edwina Hart, both agreed to come to mid Wales and I facilitated a meeting to meet with businesses that wanted to expand their businesses, and I very much hope that you would also agree to come and do the same, Minister, as well. I'm very happy to facilitate that meeting in order for you to talk about your agenda and for them to expand on their issues about growing their businesses to you and your officials. So, grateful if you could agree to that, Minister, as well.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the three points, I think, when it comes to getting to delivery. Similar points were made, I think, in some of the other comments. I'm expecting that we'll have the portfolio business case come to both Welsh and UK Governments for approval within this year to release funding to go into actual delivery to help support those jobs. You'll then see a published list of more concrete proposals, but there'll be iteration through that, as well, through the lifetime of the deal.
On Dyfi bridge, the latest information I have is that the work should be completed by the turn of the year. And when it comes to your point around property investment, it is a key challenge in every part of Wales, including in mid Wales. It's why it's one of the specific priorities in the vision document to have a property investment programme, to both refurbish what already exists so it's fit for purpose, but also to invest in new property solutions to help growth in the area. It's why I mentioned what I did in the statement itself as well, and I recognise the challenge the Member sets out. There is land that needs to be allocated for employment purposes in an appropriate place, and we of course have planning policies at a national level to help direct and understand that. If the Member writes with more detail of his suggestion of meeting businesses and looking at some of the areas, I'll be happy to consider it and to talk to him about what might be possible.

I thank the Minister.

7. Statement by the Minister for Economy: Tech and Cyber Sectors

The next item, therefore, will be the statement, again by the Minister for Economy, on the tech and cyber sectors. Therefore, the Minister to make his statement. Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Today, I'm pleased to talk to Members again about the tech and cyber sectors in Wales, areas in which Wales has developed a global reputation for our expertise. Improving the well-being of everyone in Wales is the economic mission that drives this Government's approach. Our mission sets out how we're building a stronger, greener economy, based on the principles of fair work, sustainability and the industries and services of the future.
However, we recognise there are many challenges along that path, which is why we constantly look for opportunities to develop areas of strength in Wales. The Welsh Government has long recognised the benefits and opportunities associated with the tech and cyber sectors. That includes more established areas like fintech and medtech, as well as more emerging areas, such as lawtech.
The UK is a world leader in cyber security and Wales is home to one of the largest cyber ecosystems in the UK. We already have numerous assets and achievements to be proud of. There are around 100 companies across Wales delivering cyber-related products and services. As part of the wider ecosystem, the National Digital Exploitation Centre, ResilientWorks, Cyber Wales, Technology Connected and FinTech Wales are all supporting the Welsh tech sector to grow. Companies like Tramshed Tech, with a footprint in Cardiff, Swansea and Newport, are providing vital spaces to help incubate new businesses in the tech, digital and creative sectors. They're working with global businesses like Microsoft and Google, regenerating disused sites across south Wales to transform them into co-working spaces, and I'm sure we'll hear later of the plans for Swansea's Palace Theatre, and, indeed, Newport's Innovation Station. With these partners and others, we're developing the talent and the skills required for the industry's current and future needs.
Through Tech Valleys, the Welsh Government is creating a sustainable technology campus, working in partnership with Thales and Blaenau Gwent council, alongside academia and industry. This partnership is helping to provide world-class, cutting-edge facilities that will research solutions for the cyber resilience of our critical national infrastructure. Over £16 million has been committed by the Welsh Government for the delivery of the technology campus. This is a key, strategic investment for the Welsh Government, and the largest from the Tech Valleys programme budget.

Vaughan Gething AC: I'm delighted that Thales, a world player in the cyber industry, has recognised that Wales is a great place to invest, and has anchored in Ebbw Vale. Not only is Thales providing much-needed high-quality jobs, but its presence is also helping to revitalise the community in Ebbw Vale, using local suppliers and supporting community organisations. Thales is also committed to developing a more diverse cyber-skilled workforce of the future, from schoolchildren to budding scientists.
Across the different tiers of education, partnerships are forming. I was pleased to speak at the launch event formalising Airbus and Cardiff University's strategic partnership last year. In Newport, the Airbus Endeavr Wales joint venture is inviting applications from SMEs and academia to support technology challenges within Airbus Defence and Space. The Welsh Government is funding this in partnership with Airbus on a 50:50 basis, with support from Cardiff University.
I'm particularly proud that the Welsh cyber and tech sectors have supported initiatives to attract more women and girls to take up careers in these industries. Cyber Wales is driving forward the Women in Cyber Wales programme, while the CyberFirst Girls competition aims to support girls interested in a career in cyber security. This was recently rolled out in Wales, and the winning teams for the 2023 competition included St Joseph's Roman Catholic High School in Newport. And Dirprwy Lywydd, may I offer my congratulations to all participants? And indeed, I see the local Member in the Chamber as well.
As I mentioned, we have one of the biggest cyber ecosystems in the UK, and Wales is already home to global players in the industry. We have a great story to tell on cyber, and our new cyber action plan, which I launched at the start of May, helps to tell it. The plan sets out a clear belief that Wales prospers through cyber resilience, talent and innovation.
We're not resting on the strength of the sector currently—we're going further. The cyber action plan sets out our intent to maximise the benefits of these investments. To support the plan, I was proud to commit, on behalf of the Welsh Government, £3 million of investment into the cyber innovation hub over two years, helping to put Wales firmly at the core of cyber security excellence worldwide. The hub's mission is to train more than 1,500 people with cyber security skills, to help create 25 high-growth companies and attract more than £20 million in private equity investment by 2030. It brings together industry, academia, Government and the defence sector to lead the transformation and growth of the cyber security cluster. One of the many benefits of the hub is its co-ordinated approach to skills. This should ensure that we have a pool of talent ready to meet the demand of a growing sector and address under-representation along gender, race and social class lines.
As well as our strengths in cyber security, Wales is home to approximately 128 fintech companies, employing around 16,000 people. Wales has already attracted a number of leading fintechs to grow their operations here in Wales, including the challenger banks Monzo and Starling, as well as international companies, such as US-based Bipsync and Netherlands-based Backbase. Fintechs based in Wales are experiencing strong international growth, with over 1,000 jobs created in the Wales fintech sector during 2021, including companies like Sonovate, Delio, Pepper Money, Wealthify, Credas and, of course, not forgetting the Principality Building Society.
The FinTech Wales accelerator programme the Foundry has also created over 100 jobs in the last year. Since it launched in 2021, 16 start-ups have gone from strength to strength, raising over £20 million of investment. Our strengths in fintech offer an opportunity to attract further investment, create high-value jobs, and grow the Welsh economy. This is supported by a range of partners, including FinTech Wales, which aims to establish Wales as a globally recognised hub for fintech excellence. It is led by industry, and has representations from Welsh companies like Confused.com, Admiral, the Principality again, and Capital Law. As well as driving forward developments in the industry, we also recognise the importance of manufacturers within Welsh cyber and tech sectors. From chip developers to photonics and wafers, they're all vital parts of the industry going forward, and that is just one of the reasons why I've just refreshed the manufacturing action plan.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Vaughan Gething AC: The manufacturing sector is facing challenges akin to a perfect storm: global economic shocks, labour shortages, energy price rises and continuing supply chain difficulties. The refreshed plan is designed to ensure the sector can embrace and benefit from technological change brought about by the fourth industrial revolution. It will help Wales to remain a leading manufacturing nation as part of a more prosperous and equal economy. It will also help to futureproof existing capability, take advantage of future opportunities and respond to some of our biggest long-term challenges. A number of those challenges result from global factors, which is why our international activity is focused on making sure the world knows that Wales is a great place to invest, and to support our cyber and tech companies to export their goods and services.
The Welsh Government continues to promote the tech sector at home and abroad, and has used this platform to showcase Welsh tech businesses to a global audience, as indeed I was able to do at the St David's Day celebrations at the World Expo in Dubai. That's why we continue to support industry events like Wales Tech Week, which attract a global audience to Wales. In 2020, over 4,500 registrations from 900 companies came from across 17 countries. We're looking forward to welcoming those global businesses to Wales again this October.
The trade missions programme provides tech companies with access to new markets and opportunities around the world. The recent delegation of tech businesses that I travelled with to San Francisco were part of this programme on what was a successful visit. We've also established six export clusters, including one for the tech sector, to bring businesses together to share knowledge and overcome barriers to successful exporting.
Dirprwy Lywydd, this statement sets out just some of the ways that the tech and cyber sectors are thriving in Wales. This Welsh Government will continue to support the sectors to help ensure that they play a major role in ensuring a prosperous Welsh economy for both today and tomorrow.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you, Minister, for this afternoon's statement. There's no denying that the tech and cyber sectors are two important industries, and it's imperative that we all do what we can to help them flourish. I'm very pleased to hear you list so many of the great tech companies here in Wales. Quite a few, I must stress, do fall in my region of south-east Wales, so I did have a smile on my face as you were saying those.
Only recently, I visited Tramshed Tech in Newport to see some of the work that they're doing, and I'm very much looking forward to seeing what new, exciting businesses will grow as a result of them being in place in future. There are a lot of exciting things happening in the tech and cyber sectors here in Wales, Minister, I've got no doubt, as you've set out a few of the things that the Welsh Government is going to be doing in this area, but I want to actually specifically focus on the cyber action plan. The plan sounds incredibly promising on paper, but the proof, as they say, is always in the pudding.
The objectives set out in the plan are strong, and I hope that we can all work together to deliver them, because we all want to see a stronger and greener economy. The new cyber innovations hub in Cardiff, which has received, as you mentioned, £3 million of Welsh Government funding, is really a welcome move. This new centre, as you said, which will create a co-ordinated approach to skills, innovation, new enterprise, promises to train 1,500 individuals with cybersecurity skills. It’s music to my ears. I know it’s still early days, Minister, but can I get a commitment from you that you will keep the Senedd updated in terms of the hub’s progress going forward? I would also be interested to know if the Welsh Government has given any consideration to establishing similar hubs elsewhere in the country. I, alongside my Welsh Conservatives colleagues, would really like to see an institute of technology in north-east Wales to support the next generation, so it would be good to get your thoughts on that as well, Minister. It seems a key feature of this plan is around education, which, I must admit, given Labour’s bad record in this area, doesn’t really fill me with much confidence.
However, are you confident, Minister, that young people in Wales will be fully able and equipped to take advantage of the tech and cyber sectors, given your Government’s track record? As far as I’m concerned, getting young people more engaged in science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects would be a good place to start. Minister, have you had any conversations with companies like Amazon, which runs the AWS GetIT programme—a scheme designed to inspire 12 to 14-year-old students, especially girls, to consider a future in STEM? Amazon also has a second scheme, called AWS Spark, which provides students aged between 13 and 18 years of age with content design that inspires them to explore future cloud careers. I'm sure you'll agree, Minister, that initiatives like this are a very good way to get youngsters involved in tech and also cyber sectors from a very early age. So, if you haven't already had discussions with Amazon, will you commit to engaging with them, to see if they can play a part in delivering this plan? The cyber action plan for Wales will, and I quote,
'help people, businesses and public services reduce the risks of cyber-attacks'.
As I'm sure you'll be aware, Minister, the BBC, British Airways and Boots, amongst other companies, were this week caught up in a cyber incident, exposing thousands of employees' personal data to hackers. This incident alone should highlight the serious need for robust action. Like I said, Minister, this action plan sounds really promising, and I welcome genuinely the principles of it, and I look forward to seeing how this and everything else you outline in your statement progresses, going forward. So, Minister, will you now commit today to keeping the Senedd up to date with any future developments in this area? And it would be really good to hear about them, going forward. Thank you.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the comments and questions. I am, of course, more than happy to continue to update Members on progress in both the cyber and tech sectors. There's lots to be proud of, and I think lots of room for further growth into the future.
I'll just deal with your points around cyber innovation, of whether you could replicate something like that in north-east Wales. Actually, what we're looking to do is, building on the work we've done with the Advanced Manufacturing Research Centre, where we worked with the university sector, including the link with, obviously, the University of Sheffield, we'll also engage with the wider defence sector on proposals for an advanced technology centre. You will have heard Jack Sargeant, who isn't in the room, but he regularly talks about that development, what that will mean, and the range of similar skills we will need. So, this isn't just an activity within one part of Wales. And I think that, whether there is a named institute or not, I am confident that we will see more growth in this area in north and south Wales.
On Amazon, the Member will be delighted to know that we do have engagement with Amazon Web Services. I met them recently in Swansea. That's distinct, of course, from the fulfilment centre. Web services, actually, there's been a real success in attracting people to come to Wales and to stay in Wales. And, actually, it's a really important platform for small and medium businesses to take advantage of the breadth of the Amazon platform, but all the things that need to work behind it for it to work, and it's just one example of a major company that has taken an interest in Wales. And, interestingly, the jobs there are not jobs that differ significantly in terms of the pay you can achieve in other parts of the UK. It's one of the points about the mobility within the sector, about where you can work with good connectivity.
And I know the Member made a point about Welsh education, but, actually, the reason why people like Amazon are interested in coming here, the reason why other companies in this sector are investing in growing here, is because they don't take the Member's view on the benefits of Welsh education or otherwise, both for those people with further education qualifications, those people who can leave school as well, indeed, also the graduate programme as well. You're actually seeing people wanting to locate here because of the supply of graduates and, actually, it gives us a good reason not just for people to come to study in Wales, but to stay in Wales and to be successful, and to be able to come back to Wales, if they've gone elsewhere earlier in their career. So, actually, I think there are good reasons to be optimistic about this sector continuing to grow, and it's a matter of credit to both further and higher education establishments in Wales that those businesses see a direct future here with a pipeline of talent.
And when it comes to the other reason why people are interested in coming here, it is both the points the First Minister made earlier about the stability that the Government provides, being a reliable partner here in Wales; it's also about the quality of life people can have as well. For some people, if you're used to working in London and the south-east, the ability to work in a different environment and have all the benefits that a life in Wales provides are things that are attractive to lots of people within this sector. I met a number of them when I've been in Swansea and in west Wales previously, and, indeed, here around Cardiff and Newport as well. So, I look forward to further improvements in the number of people who are looking to set up and create and grow their businesses here, and I'll be delighted to keep the Chamber updated.

Luke Fletcher AS: We welcome the Welsh Government's recent publication of its cyber action plan. It is right that the growing threat posed by malicious actors in this sector is addressed in a way that seeks to harness Wales's enormous potential as a global leader in cyber security.
Artificial intelligence has become a prominent issue of late, with increasing calls from industry experts for more robust governmental regulation of this burgeoning technology. Could the Minister therefore explain how the cyber action plan will sit alongside current Welsh Government thinking on AI, and whether the Welsh Government is considering specific action to regulate AI usage in Wales?
I also note the Welsh Government's aim to enhance cyber security in the public sector through the Cymru security operations centre, and engaging with local authorities on the implementation of the National Cyber Security Centre's cyber assessment framework. Could the Minister explain what specific support is being offered to local authorities to progress this work, especially given continued pressures on local authority finances?
Of course, while the ambitions of Government are laudable, the reality is that the digital foundations that are needed for successful implementation remain somewhat shaky here in Wales. Wales has the lowest coverage of ultrafast gigabit broadband of any of the home nations, just 52 per cent compared with 71 per cent in England and 87 per cent in Northern Ireland. We also have the lowest coverage of full fibre broadband at 40 per cent. We also know that the level of digital exclusion in Wales is higher compared to the rest of the UK, with up to 7 per cent of the population, or 180,000 people, not using the internet.
We should also consider the regional and socioeconomic disparities that underpin these figures, with rural and poorer households particularly affected in this respect. And it's also apparent that while the Welsh Government's current digital strategy delivery plan outlines specific targeted intervention in the public sector, there is a lack of clarity at present on how this could be co-ordinated with initiatives for digital improvements in the private sector. In this respect, we need a more integrated top-down strategy for digital transformation of the Welsh economy.
At this point, I'd like to draw the Minister's attention to the Irish Government's Digital Ireland framework, which stakeholders have identified as a particularly effective example. So, on this basis, will the Welsh Government commit to reviewing its current digital strategy to facilitate faster improvements in our digital ecosystem in both the public and private sectors?
And then finally on the Tech Valleys, I'm interested to learn how many jobs have been created as a result of Welsh Government's investment, and how much of the investment has gone to Welsh tech companies in the Valleys.

Vaughan Gething AC: On Tech Valleys, I don't have the information available to give him. I'll happily look at information we can provide not just on the spend, but on employment outcomes as well, and where that money has typically gone and the radius within which it's been spent.
On the digital action plan, the digital action plan is about two years old, a bit over two years old, so within that two years we've seen an awful lot of change and churn, not just within what's happened through that two years with lots of businesses moving to having a digital footprint when they didn't before, because of course they had to go online through 2020 and 2021, but that has meant that there are opportunities in the cyber sector, as well as real risks to those businesses. If you've not had an online presence and you suddenly develop one, you need to protect yourself and your customers, and that's a risk to you and your business and your customers. It's also an opportunity as well.
And in lots of this, we're talking about what for a company might be an innovation, but actually is pretty standard for lots of other partners. So, we will be reviewing and looking at the progress we've made with our digital action plan, and, indeed, what that might mean for the future. I won't commit to a time frame for a formal refresh, but we're having to at the same time take account of some of the points the Member made in his first set of questions. That is about the journey of AI and the acceleration of it—the acceleration of public awareness, I think, rather than the acceleration of AI per se—because, actually, until recently most people wouldn't have been aware of AI, but now they are. Yet, actually, that progress has been taking place for some time.
When I had the pleasure of being the health Minister, we talked lots about how AI and machine learning was already making a difference in a range of areas beneficial to the health service, to help diagnose, to help understand treatment options, and then to make it a more rapid way of research and innovation as well. So, the story of AI isn't simply one about greater risks; there are opportunities. And I think that comes back, though, to the challenge the Member put out about what are we doing with our cyber action plan that links to AI opportunities and the wider tech sector as well. Actually, that is both seeing that this is an opportunity to help improve the productivity of businesses, what they can provide, the way that services can be responsive to what we are likely to want and need from them, and at the same time the very real challenges around innovation, or rather around regulation.
And there's an uncomfortable challenge for all of us as decision makers in an area that moves so rapidly, whether we have a regulatory framework—and just put to one side for a moment whether that's devolved or a reserved responsibility—but actually to have a regulatory framework that is fit for purpose and can keep up to pace with the changes that are taking place around us. It's a genuine conundrum that I don't think we've honestly resolved, about how to have a framework that protects the interests of the user, and of the public, and our information and how that's used, and how we choose to interact with services to look for the improvement that is obviously there to be gained, together with the risk about who ultimately owns and controls the way that AI will work in a range of our areas of life. And I don't think it will be a comfortable place for Members to simply say, 'Ministers should have wide-ranging powers to change regulations when they think there's a need to.' Our processes don't work necessarily in the way that the digital world around us is making progress.
Finally, on the Member's point around infrastructure, I dealt with this briefly in the previous statement and Jane Dodds's question, but we know that these are reserved responsibilities. We also know that we have regularly, through the history of devolution, used devolved resources to invest in infrastructure, and we're going to need to do that again. So, as well as engaging with the UK Government so that they meet their own responsibilities, we will have a programme looking to make sure that we do even more to try to provide the sort of connectivity that will allow businesses to work in different parts of Wales and to generally take up the opportunities that exist. But the positive point is we do have a good story to tell. Our challenge is how more of the country is able to take part in writing the future of that story.

Mike Hedges AC: I welcome the statement by the Minister. I'm pleased the Welsh Government has recognised the benefits and opportunities associated with the tech and cyber sectors. I keep on going on about the tech sector in here; I'm glad that I'm the one raising it and I'm not responding to it. I'm very pleased with our strengths in cyber security, and that Wales is home to over 120 fintech companies, employing around 16,000 people.
Tech and cyber are not geographically constrained. Tech is one of the highest paying sectors and we need more of our population in higher paid sectors. A recognised problem is not a lack of employment, it's a lack of permanent, full-time, well-paid employment. As Nokia and BlackBerry have shown, you can be at one stage the most advanced company in a tech sector, which can be followed by losing most of your market. IBM dominated the computer market for many years, up until the early 1980s.
In Swansea we have Technium 1, Technium 2, and the Ethos building, and the local university supporting high-tech businesses, one which I believe the Minister's visited recently. Will the Minister outline the role of universities in developing and supporting the tech sector?

Vaughan Gething AC: I thank the Member for that. I think it's helpful Mike has given us three examples of companies that were previously tech giants that are now no longer seen in that way: Nokia, BlackBerry and IBM. For those Members in the room who are old enough to remember when they were genuine giants in the sector, they've now been overtaken by a range of others. It's a point about the need to carry on innovating and keeping up pace, and actually the university sector do have a key role. If you look at the cyber innovation hub, Cardiff University host it together with the Airbus and Welsh Government Endeavr programme, but actually they're taking a co-ordinating role on behalf of Welsh higher education.
I'll be in Swansea tomorrow, looking at a range of things that are actually taking place in the university sector there as well. And part of the strength of what Tramshed do is working with both the local business sector and having very practical and applied relationships with the university sector, too. So it's part of what we're looking to do with our innovation strategy, and we're talking about translating research into something that will make a practical difference in line with the mission. So, I think, Mike, you should hopefully see more in this sector that applies the learning and the research from universities in a way that will benefit your constituents, mine and others, and I'm sure you will continue to make the case for a continued focus on recent development and innovation and the benefits of the wider tech sector.

It wasn't that long ago when they were major companies. [Laughter.]

And finally, Jayne Bryant.

Jayne Bryant AC: Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. Thank you for the statement, Minister, as well. It's great to hear of so many positive developments in the tech and cyber sector. Newport's Airbus collaboration is of particular interest. I recently visited Airbus, once again in Newport West, and I've seen first-hand the fantastic high-tech work that they are doing. I'd also like to congratulate St Joseph's RC High School on their fantastic achievements, and I'd also like to acknowledge the work of KLA and their work with schools and the community and their commitment to diversity.
It's also clearthat the Welsh Government have a plan and are ambitious, but what's ultimately disappointing, however, is in certain areas our ambition is not being matched by the UK Government. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that their stance is actively stifling it. In my constituency in Newport West, our semiconductor cluster has historically grown because of support from the Welsh Government, local government and UK Government. We have a skilled workforce base that's specialised and eager to expand. I've met and spoken to many of the highly skilled and dedicated workforce in Newport, and they're always positive about the Welsh Government and what the Minister wants to do, but they are completely frustrated at the lack of detail, long-term thinking and engagement coming from the Westminster Government. Minister, for Wales and UK to lead on the semiconductor and tech sector, we must ensure that everyone is working off the same page. Resources must be utilised as effectively as possible. What conversations are you having with your counterparts in Westminster to ensure that we have a joint approach, so that industry and Government are all working co-operatively towards the same goal?

Vaughan Gething AC: I thank the Member for the comments and questions. I'm more than happy to recognise again the success of St Joseph's high school and, indeed, the work that is taking place in and around Newport. It's a genuine hotbed of activity, and I think there is potential for more, not just the work with Airbus and Endeavr, but the soft landings programme that we're developing around the innovation station in Newport to have companies who will want to invest in Wales, the support they'll be provided with, and Newport will be their first port of call.
The Member makes a point around KLA and the fact that the help and support we provided them with to provide a power solution for them was a key factor in them looking to expand their operations, with hundreds of additional well-paid jobs coming to the Newport area, but more than that the stability in relationships provided with the Welsh Government.
We've had to wait an awfully long time for a semiconductor strategy from the UK Government, and when it came, it was a little underwhelming, I think it's fair to say. But we do now have a strategy. The difficulty is it sets a very low bar of practical support to match a high level of ambition. The advantages we have at present will not last forever. The compound semiconductor cluster we have could and should be a real competitive advantage for us. We continue to look to have more deep and meaningful conversations with UK Ministers in both the departments for science and innovationas well as business and trade, because, actually, this is an area where both Governments could do more by having a more fruitful and constructive relationship with each other. That would mean that UK Ministers would need to respond to us and make sure that we're genuinely engaged in the work to develop a real plan for the future.

I thank the Minister.

Motion to suspend Standing Orders

The next item is a motion to suspend Standing Orders to allow the next item of business to be debated. I call on the Minister for Climate Change to move the motion formally. Julie James.

Motion NNDM8285 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that Senedd Cymru, in accordance with Standing Orders 33.6 and 33.8:
Suspends Standing Order 12.20(i) to allow NNDM8284 to be considered in Plenary on 6 June 2023.

Motion moved.

Julie James AC: I formally move the motion.

The proposal is to suspend Standing Orders. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

8. The Allocation of Housing and Homelessness (Eligibility) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2023

Item 8, the Allocation of Housing and Homelessness (Eligibility) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2023. I call on the Minister for Climate Change to move the motion. Julie James.

Motion NNDM8284 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5, approves that the draft The Allocation of Housing and Homelessness (Eligibility) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2023 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 22 May 2023.

Motion moved.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Members will have witnessed the emerging and alarming situation in Khartoum and across Sudan and the subsequent evacuation by the United Kingdom's armed forces of more than 2,000 British nationals and others caught up in the violence. Most of those who have been brought to the UK will have returned to their homes or will stay with family and friends. However, a small number will not have a settled and secure place to live and may be in housing need or at risk of homelessness.
The UK Government normally applies a habitual residence test to people with a right to enter the UK so that they are prevented from claiming benefits immediately after their arrival. The test can take between one to three months to complete. Due to the extreme circumstances of those evacuated, the UK Government has decided to disapply that test for people who have escaped the violence in Sudan. Anyone now arriving will be able to access benefits should they need them. The Welsh Government welcomes that decision and we must now take action to ensure this decision is reflected in Wales.
The Allocation of Housing and Homelessness (Eligibility) (Wales) Regulations 2014, which make provision in Wales for which persons from abroad are eligible or ineligible for social housing and housing assistance, are currently misaligned with this disapplication of the habitual residence test.The draft regulations we have tabled before the Senedd today are designed to address that misalignment so that access to housing or housing assistance is available for those coming to Wales from Sudan. We've introduced the regulations more quickly than normal due to the urgency of the situation in Sudan, and the plight of those fleeing the violence. I hope Members will understand this decision and the importance of establishing clearly the eligibility of those seeking housing or housing assistance in Wales.
I wish to thank the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for considering the regulations in less time than is normally taken, due to the urgency of the situation and I'm grateful to them for their efficient and rigorous review.
The Allocation of Housing and Homelessness (Eligibility) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2023 will provide British nationals, others not subject to immigration control or treated as such, and anyone with immigration leave and recourse to public funds evacuated from the conflict in Sudan with eligibility for housing and housing assistance.
I must clarify, to avoid any doubt, that the draft regulations are more limited than similar changes we've made to the eligibility rules affecting people from Ukraine. A Sudanese national will not benefit from the amendment we are making unless they already have leave to enter or remain in the UK with recourse to public funds. I hope Members will recognise the importance of these amendments and the value that the draft regulations will bring to those who have been forced to return to the UK from Sudan. Any person experiencing such trauma and distress deserves our support, and I hope the regulations and the changes they make are welcome. Diolch.

Minister, we have no other speakers. Do you wish to add anything to your statement?

Julie James AC: I just move the regulations and hope Members will support them.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion to suspend Standing Orders

The next item once again is another motion to suspend Standing Orders, to allow the next item of business to be debated. I call on the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution to move the motion formally. Mick Antoniw.

Motion NNDM8287 Mick Antoniw
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Orders 33.6 and 33.8:
Suspends Standing Order 12.20(i) and that part of Standing Order 11.16 that requires the weekly announcement under Standing Order 11.11 to constitute the timetable for business in Plenary for the following week, to allow a debate on NNDM8286 to be considered in Plenary on Tuesday 6 June.

Motion moved.

Mick Antoniw AC: I move the motion formally.

The proposal is to suspend Standing Orders. There is any Member object? No. Therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

9. Legislative Consent Motion on the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Item 9 is a legislative consent motion on the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill. I call on the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution to move the motion. Mick Antoniw.

Motion NNDM8286 Mick Antoniw
To propose that Senedd Cymru, in accordance with Standing Order 29.6, agrees that provisions in the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill set out in Supplementary Legislative Consent Memorandum No. 5, in so far as they fall within the legislative competence of the Senedd, should be considered by the UK Parliament.

Motion moved.

Mick Antoniw AC: I move the motion. Deputy Llywydd, I welcome this opportunity for the Senedd to debate the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill again, albeit at very short notice and in the middle of ping-pong between the two Houses of Parliament, which the UK Government decided to start only two days after the House of Lords had finished its consideration of the Bill. I wrote to the UK Government to make the case that this would not allow the Senedd sufficient time to consider the recent fundamental changes to the Bill, which respect for devolution requires, but I've not had a response.
Moreover, and shockingly, there was a statement from Lord Callanan for the UK Government in the House on 22 May confirming that while the Scottish Parliament and the Senedd had voted to withhold consent to the Bill, the Government would be proceeding anyway. This was even before the devolved legislatures had had the opportunity to consider the recent substantive amendments to the Bill, demonstrating further disregard for the Sewel convention. Nevertheless, it is right and proper that the view of the Senedd will be expressed again.
In the debate on 28 March, I described the Bill as a discontinuity Bill, driven and motivated by an extreme and ideologically driven parliamentary faction, saying that it sabotages years of parliamentary and legislative convention and democratic process. The recent changes to the Bill by the UK Government, most noticeably the scrapping of the deeply irresponsible automatic sunsetting of retained EU law at the end of this year to avoid laws disappearing without any scrutiny by legislatures, and even inadvertently, are a step in right direction.
That being said, the Welsh Government has been fundamentally opposing the broad intent of this Bill. In general, we believe that retained EU law, like EU law before it, works well. Of course, it would be reasonable to amend this gradually over time, as with any body of law. But this Bill establishes an unacceptable, rushed amending or revocation process with no consultation, real impact assessments, or proper legislative scrutiny. However, I can confirm that the Welsh Ministers have no desire to use the powers in this Bill to amend retained EU law in devolved areas to lower the standards we enjoy in matters such as the environment and public health. Rather, we intend to keep the protections derived from retained EU law, working with the Senedd and with stakeholders, as appropriate.
Let me take this opportunity to remind you of some of the remaining substantive concerns we have about the Bill’s provisions, as detailed in our original legislative consent memorandum of 3 November 2022. There are provisions in the Bill that undermine the devolution settlement. Firstly, we believe that any powers to deal with retained EU law within devolved areas should reside, in the first instance, with Welsh Ministers. Where powers under the Bill are exercisable by UK Government Ministers in devolved areas, then these should, as a minimum, be subject to an affirmative consent requirement of the Welsh Ministers in advance, and this should be on the face of the Bill. This is a fundamental point of constitutional integrity, which the UK Government has still not addressed, despite repeated statements by Welsh Ministers that it is not acceptable.
We have worked with like-minded Members of the House of Lords to seek to amend the Bill and to protect the devolution settlement, and I am very grateful for the efforts of those peers. But the UK Government has not moved, despite repeated assertions of its respect for devolution. Indeed, as recently as 17 May at a meeting of the Interministerial Standing Committee, I asked UK Government Ministers why this issue had still not been resolved with an amendment to the Bill, but I received no answer to that direct question.
Moreover, on devolution, we cannot accept that powers for Welsh Ministers to deal with legislation in devolved areas should be constrained by the views of the UK Government. By definition, devolution testifies to the freedom of devolved governments to make policy decisions in devolved areas. So, an attempt to limit this with the imprecise requirement in the Bill that changes to retained EU law should not increase the regulatory burden is inappropriate. It is important that devolved governments and legislatures are left to modify retained EU law as they wish to do so without a policy restriction imposed by the UK Government. Any limitations within the Bill that would prevent devolved Government from maintaining or raisingstandards would be incompatible with devolution.
More broadly, and despite the changes to the Bill that have greatly reduced the workload and risks associated with the Bill, we still have concerns regarding its delivery. As you know, business organisations, trade unions, environmental groups and many others have expressed concerns about the UK Government’s intentions for the powers it will gain under the Bill. The UK Government should pay attention to the stakeholders who have expertise about the current regulatory system and want to maintain the benefits to businesses, citizens and the natural environment that retained EU law provides.
Finally, we expect that where policies are covered by common frameworks, the UK Government will honour its commitments to respect and engage with this inter-governmental mechanism. I’m sure that the Senedd shares the fundamental concerns that we still have about this Bill. Diolch, Llywydd.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

I call on the Chair of the Legislation, Constitution and Justice Committee, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you, Llywydd. When we last spoke in this Siambr about the matter of granting legislative consent for the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill, I said that my committee had been unable to report on memorandum No. 4 as a consequence of amendments being made at a late stage in the UK Parliament. This is not a criticism of the Welsh Government, but we are in the same position once again with memorandum No. 5, and it highlights the unsatisfactory nature of the legislative consent process and the need for reform.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: The Welsh Government laid memorandum No. 5 before the Senedd on 26 May and it reflects the amendments tabled to the Bill by the UK Government for consideration at Lords Report Stage and Third Reading. So, yesterday afternoon, my committee was able to give some consideration to memorandum No. 5, but I have to say, again, the timescales involved have not permitted any sort of meaningful scrutiny. This has caused problems, as we've heard, for the Welsh Government; it causes problems for our committee scrutiny as well. So, while unfortunate, this could indeed have been, and was, anticipated.
We have been monitoring the developments with the Bill and, on 16 May, having considered the UK Government's modified position, we wrote to the Counsel General and posed 25 questions, which we intended to be helpful both to the Counsel General and to the Senedd in seeking answers. We felt these 25 questions were important to ask, not least because Members would likely be requested to make a further consent decision, as is happening today.
So, Counsel General, our thanks from the committee for your response to that letter, which we received on Friday—it's all been a rapid turnaround—and it has been made available via today's agenda for all Members of the Senedd to see.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I will focus on a few key points that arise from the Counsel General's response to my committee.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: The retained EU law listed in the new Schedule to the Bill, which is to fall at the end of this year, does include law in devolved areas. It is concerning that the UK Government has included such legislation without first consulting the Welsh Government. Yet more delegated powers are being taken, adding to the very broad—very broad—delegated powers already in this Bill. And I note that the Welsh Government was not consulted before the UK Government added a new regulation-making power, which may be exercised by the Welsh Ministers, to exclude law from the list in the new Schedule. This regulation-making power must be exercised before the end of October, so again there is little time to act and to act with certainty. There are very wide powers in this Bill to restate, to reproduce, to revoke, to replace and to update retained EU law, and that has not changed. They may be exercised by UK Ministers in devolved areas of competence—and let me make this clear—without the Senedd or indeed without Welsh Ministers giving their consent. The Counsel General referred in his opening remarks to the Welsh Government seeking affirmative assent proceedings, which have not been acceded to, but there is no voice for either Welsh Government or the Senedd within this.
Other concerns that my committee have set out in our report on the first, second and third memorandums have still not been resolved, and these include a concern of the majority of the committee about the fact that EU-derived rights will still be sunsetting at the end of this year. 
Counsel General, we welcome the fact that you have committed to keeping the Senedd informed of developments—we truly welcome that. Tomorrow, we understand the Lords are due to consider the disagreements that the Commons have with the amendments that have been made by the Lords. I believe the Bill, in that process of ping-pong, may then return to the Commons early next week. I wonder if, Counsel General, in your closing remarks, perhaps you could say a bit about what you anticipate may indeed happen in those final stages of ping-pong.
Llywydd, much has been made of the removal of the automatic 31 December 2023 sunset provision and the new Schedule that now replaces it, which lists retained EU law that will fall at the end of this year. Members will recall that my committee called for the sunset's removal. In terms of having certainty of the law that applies to us all, this development is a better position than the previous one.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: But fundamental problems with the Bill remain. Not least, the broad delegated powers given to UK Government Ministers within the Bill mean that there is still a real risk that the Senedd will be bypassed as decisions are made in devolved areas.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: That is why our committee still has severe concerns over this Bill. Diolch yn fawr.

Darren Millar AC: It will come as no surprise to the Counsel General, or indeed anybody else in this Chamber, that we will be supporting the LCM before the Chamber today, because we simply believe that the people of Wales want us to get on and finally deliver on the benefits of Brexit that many of them want to see. And I would like to remind everybody in this Chamber of the inconvenient truth that is forgotten by every other party in this Chamber all the time, and that is that the people of Wales voted to leave the European Union. And in doing so, they realised and understood, because they're not stupid, that that would mean that we would leave some of the laws of the European Union behind. Now, I know that there are many thousands of pieces of legislation on the statute books, which are a legacy of our membership of the European Union for many decades. Of those, over 1,000 laws have already been revoked or reversed. In addition to that, there is now a Schedule—a very clear Schedule—for everybody to be able to read, of an additional 591 laws that the UK Government intend to sunset at the end of the year. The Welsh Government still has, as has been said by Huw Irranca-Davies, until the end of October to be able to consider that list and whether there's anything on it that it does not want to see revoked at the end of the year. And frankly, if the Welsh Government had spent more time actually studying the EU law catalogue, which was already available on the retained EU law dashboard that the UK Government has prepared—there's a big long list of them—if you'd spent more time looking at that in recent months, since October of last year, when this piece of legislation was brought forward, you'd probably be a fair good way through that list in terms of being able to actually make some informed decisions and have a sensible conversation here in the Chamber today.
Now, when we last debated this particular issue, the Counsel General made it clear that the principled opposition of the Welsh Government to the Bill was the fact that the sunset clause was going to happen, and there was insufficient time for the Welsh Government to consider all the pieces of legislation. So, the UK Government listened to that argument. It considered the argument that was put forward, both here and in Scotland, to be able to scrap the sunset clause, and it did—it scrapped the sunset clause. Now, we have a whole list of other arguments that the Counsel General is trying to bring before the Senedd as another excuse to be able to block this. Well, look, people see what they see, and they perceive that you're simply trying to block anything to do with Brexit, as you always have in this Chamber since 2016 and that vote actually took place. So, it's very disappointing, but the public see it, we see it, and, for that reason, we'll be supporting this motion today.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: As Members will be well aware by now, Plaid Cymru opposes the use of LCMs as a matter of principle. We firmly belive that decisions affecting the devolution competencies of Wales should be made in this Senedd without exception. We've also stated our opposition to the retained EU law Bill for some time. It's an appallingly designed piece of legislation that's been driven by ideological zealotry rather than practical common sense. The recent scaling back of the UK Government's ambition in this area is an acknowledgement of that fact, and it speaks volumes that Rishi Sunak and Kemi Badenoch, former vocal cheerleaders of the Brexit project, are seeking to reign in its worst excesses at every opportunity, and yet another supposed benefit of Brexit has therefore been shown not to be worth the paper it's written on.
Even though the number of pieces of retained EU law due to be revoked has now been trimmed down significantly, from around 5,000 to just under 600, this still imposes significant and unnecessary pressure on governmental resources. As the Counsel General rightly noted in his recent correspondence to the LJC committee, the Bill also continues to provide powers for UK Ministers to amend or revoke retained EU law without having to obtain the consent of relevant devolved authorities. As such, though the Government may well be slowly waking up to the grim reality of this disastrous Brexit policy, it's thinly veiled contempt towards devolution remains undiminished.
I would be very grateful, therefore, if the Counsel General could confirm again that the Welsh Government will continue to withhold its consent to this LCM, and whether it has written to UK Government counterparts to reiterate its position since 10 May. I'd also welcome any updates that the Welsh Government could provide on the resource implications for reviewing the revised Schedule of retained EU law, both from a staffing and financial perspective. And has the Welsh Government explored the possibility of getting reimbursed by the UK Government for any costs incurred on reviewing the impact of the retained EU law that no longer features on the Schedule of revocation? Thank you.

The Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution to reply now.

Mick Antoniw AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Perhaps if I start, first of all, with responding to Darren's comments. You're correct, Darren—I'm not surprised that you are supporting the issue of legislative consent. In fact, you were supporting legislative consent when it did include the sunset. I think the fact that the sunset has now been removed is a good thing, but I don't think it's any consequence of the position that you've adopted.
Can I just say this is nothing to do with Brexit? This is to do with constitutional and legal integrity. And it's about the fact that, still within the Bill, there are concurrent powers and continuing concurrent powers for the UK Government to legislate in devolved areas. Now, when it went to the House of Lords, this is what Baroness Neville-Rolfe, the Minister of State at the Cabinet Office, a Conservative Member for the Government, said:
'The UK Government are committed to ensuring that the provisions in the Bill, including its powers, are consistent with the devolution settlements'.
She then went on to say,
'it is intended to reduce additional resource pressure on the devolved Governments'—
that's very kind—
'by enabling the UK Government to legislate on behalf of a devolved Government where they do not intend to take a different position.'
At the inter-ministerial committee meeting, I put then to the chair of that committee, 'Well, in that case, you can have absolutely no objection, when you're exercising those powers, to requiring the consent of the Welsh Government.' That has been refused. There's no reason given as to why it's being refused, and there is no logic as to why it should be refused either.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Would the Counsel General give way?

Mick Antoniw AC: Certainly.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I'd just like to confirm to him, and to reassure Darren, that we're not seeking simply for the Welsh Government to be able to give consent when this trespasses onto clearly devolved competencies, but actually for this Senedd not to be bypassed. So, Counsel General, I don't know if you'd agree with me that I'm not just seeking the ear of the UK Government to make sure that you've got the powers, but that we've got the powers.

Mick Antoniw AC: You're absolutely right to correct me on that, and I do apologise for the misrepresentation. It is absolutely right. One of the problems with this process—. I get the letter on 19 May saying, 'Will you consent to these amendments?' On 23 May, the UK Government, in Parliament, are saying, 'Well, we're going to override the Welsh Government in any event before you've even had the chance to consider it.' Part of the problem is the way in which this process has been pressed on in the timetable has undermined the parliamentary process, and it has undermined the ability to scrutinise. And when you talk about the ability, since October last year, to scrutinise all these 4,000-5,000 pieces of legislation, the reality is all we had in October was a list of some 4,000-5,000 pieces of legislation and no analysis of what they were. The idea that you can actually analyse 5,000 pieces of legislation within that timescale is absolutely ridiculous.
Llywydd, in closing, firstly, can I thank the four committees that have considered this Bill? I'm particularly grateful to the LJCC for their scrutiny and the detailed commitments, and the understanding over the processes. And I recognise everything you say about the way this undermines the parliamentary process and the right of Members to be able to scrutinise legislation properly. The Welsh Government has continued to explain to the UK Government what is wrong with the Bill, but, regrettably, we still have the concerns that I have explained, and I, therefore, ask Members to withhold legislative consent to the Bill.

The proposal is to agree the motion? Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections, and we will therefore defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

10. Voting Time

And that brings us to voting time and, unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed directly to voting, and the only vote this evening will be the vote on the item that we've just discussed, the LCM on the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 17, no abstentions, 36 against, and therefore the motion is not agreed.

Item 9. Legislative Consent Motion on the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill: For: 17, Against: 36, Abstain: 0
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

That concludes our business for this afternoon. Thank you.

The meeting ended at 17:44.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Sioned Williams: How do the Welsh Government’s health strategies promote the development of environments that enable good health?

Mark Drakeford: Our strategy A Healthier Wales, focuses on a shift from treatment to prevention and early intervention to help enable and encourage good health and well-being throughout life.

John Griffiths: What is the Welsh Government's latest assessment of the prevalence of vaping across Wales?

Mark Drakeford: 13% of adults smoke in Wales and 6% currently use e-cigarettes. In relation to young people, 4% of secondary school pupils in Wales aged 11-16 smoke at least once a week. 3% of secondary school pupils in Wales ages 11-16 use e-cigarettes at least once a week.

Cefin Campbell: What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of floating offshore wind energy in the Celtic Sea on Mid and West Wales?

Mark Drakeford: In our assessment, floating offshore wind holds enormous potential to benefit Mid and West Wales through the pursuit of renewable energy and securing jobs for the future. The UK Government must deliver a strike price regime sufficient to achieve the full potential of this nascent industry.

Gareth Davies: What progress has the Welsh Government made towards its aim of removing profit from looked-after children's services?

Mark Drakeford: We have recently completed an extensive consultation on proposed changes to primary legislation to support the commitment and the summary of responses will be published by the end of June. We have also committed an additional £68m to the sector over three years to support delivery.